2000 Jeep Engine Knock
02-13-2012, 03:47 PM
#16
☠ CF Sheriff ☠
ok so I found this thread since I was talking with her in the Maryland thread. Just to update this with what she's revealed today
she posted this video of her ACTUAL engine sound:
revealed that she had to refill the coolant because it was empty, and once before also - so there's a definite loss of coolant, with no discernible leak (assume burned).
Says good oil pressure, and has not said anything about cooling issues or overheating, engine has 141,000 miles on it.
She has a misfire code - #3(?) cylinder
So input - without seeing/hearing it in person, sounds like top end - stuck lifter, collapsed rod, bad rod bearing(s). Doesn't sound like crank bearings are bad (yet), although the coolant loss probably means a blown head gasket or cracked head, and they should be replaced regardless.
Thoughts from others? TJwalker i know you're great at this engine operational stuff so i'd like to know what your initial guess is on this?
I"m gonna try and stop by later this week if she wants me to.
she posted this video of her ACTUAL engine sound:
revealed that she had to refill the coolant because it was empty, and once before also - so there's a definite loss of coolant, with no discernible leak (assume burned).
Says good oil pressure, and has not said anything about cooling issues or overheating, engine has 141,000 miles on it.
She has a misfire code - #3(?) cylinder
So input - without seeing/hearing it in person, sounds like top end - stuck lifter, collapsed rod, bad rod bearing(s). Doesn't sound like crank bearings are bad (yet), although the coolant loss probably means a blown head gasket or cracked head, and they should be replaced regardless.
Thoughts from others? TJwalker i know you're great at this engine operational stuff so i'd like to know what your initial guess is on this?
I"m gonna try and stop by later this week if she wants me to.
02-13-2012, 05:42 PM
#17
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Year: 1999
Model: Cherokee
Engine: 4.0
Should find out EXACTLY what the oil pressure is at hot idle. That is a very important data point.
But with the coolant loss and the misfire code for cylinder #3 and engine noise, this could be a cracked 0331 cylinder head that has already done damage to the engine. On the 00-01, the head cracks more frequently than a head gasket issue due to a casting defect from the factory (thank you Chrysler)
I'd recommend starting by looking through the oil filler cap to see if you can see any anti-freeze seeping through a crack in the head. Best strategy though for visual inspection is to remove the valve cover; you can get a much closer look this way. Use a good light on a fully hot pressurized engine. Many times (not always) you can see these cracks with a visual inspection. Look closely with a good light between cylinders 3-4, which is where the casting defect is.....I'd start there.
Keep us posted.
But with the coolant loss and the misfire code for cylinder #3 and engine noise, this could be a cracked 0331 cylinder head that has already done damage to the engine. On the 00-01, the head cracks more frequently than a head gasket issue due to a casting defect from the factory (thank you Chrysler)
I'd recommend starting by looking through the oil filler cap to see if you can see any anti-freeze seeping through a crack in the head. Best strategy though for visual inspection is to remove the valve cover; you can get a much closer look this way. Use a good light on a fully hot pressurized engine. Many times (not always) you can see these cracks with a visual inspection. Look closely with a good light between cylinders 3-4, which is where the casting defect is.....I'd start there.
Keep us posted.
Last edited by tjwalker; 02-13-2012 at 05:48 PM.
02-13-2012, 08:44 PM
#18
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Model: Cherokee
My 96 sounded similar to that and i had a misfire in cylinder 1. Try and use a code reader at a local auto parts store. Advance auto or autozone can help you out. See if any cylinders are misfiring and move from there once those are ruled out. The sound you may be hearing is the cylinder not firing just being "dead" and moving up and down in there
02-14-2012, 08:24 AM
#19
☠ CF Sheriff ☠
she gave me her contact info so i'm gonna try and go check it out in person one day this week. Anyone know if advance auto loans oil pressure gauges?
02-14-2012, 08:33 AM
#20
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Year: 1999
Model: Cherokee
Engine: 4.0
Many big box parts stores loan oil pressure gauges, but I'd call first.
02-14-2012, 08:42 AM
#21
☠ CF Sheriff ☠
She only lives 20 miles from me...so what the hell. Thanks I live right next to an advance.
Assuming the head is cracked, and has been for some time, what are your thoughts as to where the sound is coming from? Sounds too fast paced to be main bearings? Like 2 knocks per revolution.
Assuming the head is cracked, and has been for some time, what are your thoughts as to where the sound is coming from? Sounds too fast paced to be main bearings? Like 2 knocks per revolution.
02-14-2012, 08:59 PM
#22
☠ CF Sheriff ☠
updates (yaaay!)
went and looked at the jeep tonight. Definitely a very pronounced knocking, I was unable to determine exactly where it is coming from, but sounds like top end.
SO...what I know:
- no signs of coolant in oil, or oil in coolant. No buildup on dipstick or filler cap
- temperature held steady right below 210. No overheating issues on test drive or according to owner
- no coolant leaks, but according to her testimony - definite coolant consumption
- evident moisture from exhaust, 5-10 minutes of running left a nice wet spot on the pavement, was unable to determine what it was
- no coolant smell (burnt or unburnt) was apparent
- on test drive, knocking was very loud under acceleration, but almost stopped completely in that golden region where the accelerator is jusssst pressed enough to match engine and driveline rotational speed. (flexplate bolts loose??)
- no visible cracks through oil fill between cyl 3 and 4, checked hot and cold, on and off. Cleaned the head off as best i could, but still no sign. I saw what looked like it MAY be some discoloration in a line, but it was at the edge of the oil path, so it is probably just from oil flow.
- verified good oil pressure: 40-50 psi while driving, 20psi at hot idle (full warmup)
- according to owner, change to this condition from previously fine operation was sudden. She drove to a friends house, came out later to drive home, and the sound had begun.
- Had a misfire code on #3, replaced the spark plugs (they were evidently quite bad), and reset computer. Code came back 2-3 weeks later.
- "Ear to the steel rod" test didn't yield much - knocking is louder in the cyl 3/4 region than any others, all injectors firing
here's the kicker - confirmed 0331 head by the casting #, BUT, it's a TUPY head (indicator clearly visible though oil fill in big letters). This is a 2000 XJ, meaning the head has definitely been replaced at some point, and maybe the entire engine (this part was not clear).
sooooo....i need some input. Could this head have cracked? Or is the damage from the previous head failing? And if so, where could the unexplained coolant consumption be coming from?
My initial thought is that the new head has in fact cracked, but on the bottom of the head, allowing coolant into cyl#3 - which probably means the piston skirt is damaged, thus the noise, and also explains the misfire code since the plug is being fouled. I did not take off the coil pack or take out the spark plugs to check this due to lack of time/light/etc.
any and all thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.
went and looked at the jeep tonight. Definitely a very pronounced knocking, I was unable to determine exactly where it is coming from, but sounds like top end.
SO...what I know:
- no signs of coolant in oil, or oil in coolant. No buildup on dipstick or filler cap
- temperature held steady right below 210. No overheating issues on test drive or according to owner
- no coolant leaks, but according to her testimony - definite coolant consumption
- evident moisture from exhaust, 5-10 minutes of running left a nice wet spot on the pavement, was unable to determine what it was
- no coolant smell (burnt or unburnt) was apparent
- on test drive, knocking was very loud under acceleration, but almost stopped completely in that golden region where the accelerator is jusssst pressed enough to match engine and driveline rotational speed. (flexplate bolts loose??)
- no visible cracks through oil fill between cyl 3 and 4, checked hot and cold, on and off. Cleaned the head off as best i could, but still no sign. I saw what looked like it MAY be some discoloration in a line, but it was at the edge of the oil path, so it is probably just from oil flow.
- verified good oil pressure: 40-50 psi while driving, 20psi at hot idle (full warmup)
- according to owner, change to this condition from previously fine operation was sudden. She drove to a friends house, came out later to drive home, and the sound had begun.
- Had a misfire code on #3, replaced the spark plugs (they were evidently quite bad), and reset computer. Code came back 2-3 weeks later.
- "Ear to the steel rod" test didn't yield much - knocking is louder in the cyl 3/4 region than any others, all injectors firing
here's the kicker - confirmed 0331 head by the casting #, BUT, it's a TUPY head (indicator clearly visible though oil fill in big letters). This is a 2000 XJ, meaning the head has definitely been replaced at some point, and maybe the entire engine (this part was not clear).
sooooo....i need some input. Could this head have cracked? Or is the damage from the previous head failing? And if so, where could the unexplained coolant consumption be coming from?
My initial thought is that the new head has in fact cracked, but on the bottom of the head, allowing coolant into cyl#3 - which probably means the piston skirt is damaged, thus the noise, and also explains the misfire code since the plug is being fouled. I did not take off the coil pack or take out the spark plugs to check this due to lack of time/light/etc.
any and all thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.
Last edited by dukie564; 02-14-2012 at 09:12 PM.
02-14-2012, 09:35 PM
#23
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Interesting that it has the 0331 TUPY head, I say if you can pull the #3 plug, and pending findings a compression test may be in order. Does the owner have any paperwork from PO concerning a head replacement?
02-15-2012, 06:19 AM
#24
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Year: 1999
Model: Cherokee
Engine: 4.0
More testing would be recommended to isolate the root cause. The fact that this already has a TUPY head would definitely indicate a previously cracked 0331 head problem by the previous owner. So engine damage from that incident is undetermined, but a possibility.
That unexplained coolant loss is troubling. So is the fact that knocking is louder in the area of cylinders 3-4. Has the owner performed a COMPREHENSIVE search for any leak? Don't want to be chasing your tail. If it's not leaking coolant, it's burning it and it is possible that she has another cracked head. TUPY heads are definitely not as prone to failure, but any head "can" crack.
Here are some things she may want to consider to help isolate this....
*Be sure flexplate bolts are not loose
*Another COMPREHENSIVE look for an anti-freeze leak. Get underneath the vehicle that is hot and fully pressurized with a good light, paying special attention to the seams on the radiator, a very common failure point for a vehicle of this vintage
*Pull the spark plugs for inspection and cylinder by cylinder comparison as fishtaconc mentioned
*Pull valve cover for a closer look for a cracked head
*Cooling system pressure test
*Block test (sniff coolant for the presence of hydrocarbons) At a shop, or Napa sells a kit for around $40
*Compression testing. Although this is not a good test for a cracked head, it is still a good data point on general engine condition
*Cylinder leakdown test
That unexplained coolant loss is troubling. So is the fact that knocking is louder in the area of cylinders 3-4. Has the owner performed a COMPREHENSIVE search for any leak? Don't want to be chasing your tail. If it's not leaking coolant, it's burning it and it is possible that she has another cracked head. TUPY heads are definitely not as prone to failure, but any head "can" crack.
Here are some things she may want to consider to help isolate this....
*Be sure flexplate bolts are not loose
*Another COMPREHENSIVE look for an anti-freeze leak. Get underneath the vehicle that is hot and fully pressurized with a good light, paying special attention to the seams on the radiator, a very common failure point for a vehicle of this vintage
*Pull the spark plugs for inspection and cylinder by cylinder comparison as fishtaconc mentioned
*Pull valve cover for a closer look for a cracked head
*Cooling system pressure test
*Block test (sniff coolant for the presence of hydrocarbons) At a shop, or Napa sells a kit for around $40
*Compression testing. Although this is not a good test for a cracked head, it is still a good data point on general engine condition
*Cylinder leakdown test
Last edited by tjwalker; 02-15-2012 at 06:31 AM.
02-15-2012, 07:58 AM
#25
☠ CF Sheriff ☠
I know for sure there are no external coolant leaks, I checked every seam and connection very well with a good light, from the top and bottom - it has to be burning it.
I agree with TJwalker - you need to find a shop to do a compression test and leakdown test, as well as to remove the valve cover and check the top of the head for cracks. I can try and help you find one in your area if you want, but generally speaking stay away from places like Pep Boys that primarily do oil changes and tires - you need a small shop that specializes in engine repair and diagnostics. A shop that deals with a lot of jeeps would be a plus as well, but not absolutely necessary. At this point I would not get any repairs done (nor let them talk you into it) - just the tests and inspection. We need the results of those tests to proceed further in the diagnosis.
I agree with TJwalker - you need to find a shop to do a compression test and leakdown test, as well as to remove the valve cover and check the top of the head for cracks. I can try and help you find one in your area if you want, but generally speaking stay away from places like Pep Boys that primarily do oil changes and tires - you need a small shop that specializes in engine repair and diagnostics. A shop that deals with a lot of jeeps would be a plus as well, but not absolutely necessary. At this point I would not get any repairs done (nor let them talk you into it) - just the tests and inspection. We need the results of those tests to proceed further in the diagnosis.
02-15-2012, 11:21 AM
#26
Senior Member
Thread Starter
I know for sure there are no external coolant leaks, I checked every seam and connection very well with a good light, from the top and bottom - it has to be burning it.
I agree with TJwalker - you need to find a shop to do a compression test and leakdown test, as well as to remove the valve cover and check the top of the head for cracks. I can try and help you find one in your area if you want, but generally speaking stay away from places like Pep Boys that primarily do oil changes and tires - you need a small shop that specializes in engine repair and diagnostics. A shop that deals with a lot of jeeps would be a plus as well, but not absolutely necessary. At this point I would not get any repairs done (nor let them talk you into it) - just the tests and inspection. We need the results of those tests to proceed further in the diagnosis.
I agree with TJwalker - you need to find a shop to do a compression test and leakdown test, as well as to remove the valve cover and check the top of the head for cracks. I can try and help you find one in your area if you want, but generally speaking stay away from places like Pep Boys that primarily do oil changes and tires - you need a small shop that specializes in engine repair and diagnostics. A shop that deals with a lot of jeeps would be a plus as well, but not absolutely necessary. At this point I would not get any repairs done (nor let them talk you into it) - just the tests and inspection. We need the results of those tests to proceed further in the diagnosis.
First and foremost I am so thankful that dukie564 made a trip to my home to check out my problem. Secondly I am very appreciative for all the advice that I have been given (TJWalker and others) and I'm also in awe because rarely do you find people that are genuinely good people with no negative motives. God bless you all for what you have done for me. I don't know too much about shops that will do the mentioned testing,but perhaps someone in the Maryland, Annapolis area can refer me to someone. Thank you again.
02-15-2012, 11:29 AM
#27
Senior Member
Thread Starter
PO owner never disclosed problems with engine. The shop that had the records would not print them out for me, but he had been the mechanic since 2006 or 2007. Of course the PO could only find paperwork for recent work which was oil change, and new tires. I believe the problem existed and the owner knew about it. The engine light came on after a matter of a few weeks of me purchasing. She had the code reset and put a for sale sign on the jeep.
02-15-2012, 11:31 AM
#28
☠ CF Sheriff ☠
02-15-2012, 11:47 AM
#29
☠ CF Sheriff ☠
did a quick search for you
based on the reviews alone, i would give one these guys a call (in order)
http://www.yelp.com/biz/masons-auto-...nter-annapolis
http://www.yelp.com/biz/accurate-aut...-inc-annapolis
http://www.yelp.com/biz/redds-automotive-annapolis-2
http://www.yelp.com/biz/a-arundel-au...nter-annapolis
based on the reviews alone, i would give one these guys a call (in order)
http://www.yelp.com/biz/masons-auto-...nter-annapolis
http://www.yelp.com/biz/accurate-aut...-inc-annapolis
http://www.yelp.com/biz/redds-automotive-annapolis-2
http://www.yelp.com/biz/a-arundel-au...nter-annapolis
02-15-2012, 05:44 PM
#30
Senior Member
Thread Starter
did a quick search for you
based on the reviews alone, i would give one these guys a call (in order)
http://www.yelp.com/biz/masons-auto-...nter-annapolis
http://www.yelp.com/biz/accurate-aut...-inc-annapolis
http://www.yelp.com/biz/redds-automotive-annapolis-2
http://www.yelp.com/biz/a-arundel-au...nter-annapolis
based on the reviews alone, i would give one these guys a call (in order)
http://www.yelp.com/biz/masons-auto-...nter-annapolis
http://www.yelp.com/biz/accurate-aut...-inc-annapolis
http://www.yelp.com/biz/redds-automotive-annapolis-2
http://www.yelp.com/biz/a-arundel-au...nter-annapolis
Masons was where the PO had been taking the vehicle since 2007 and I had also inquired about the condition of the vehicle when I was told she could not find the maintenance records. Masons of course would not release them to me, but assured me that she had not had any major issues during the time he had serviced the vehicle.
I will call the others on Thursday. I did call Firestone and they will do an engine diag for $100 although when I was explaining to one of my church member's that works at the shop, her guys were like save your money sis and get the engine.