Alignment questions
#16
CF Veteran
Time to revive this post. So i went back there for fun and see what they say this time..... Get comfy and a nice cup of coffee
First off they told me theres an extra charge to clean underneath because its to dirty under there which i find very very stupid and pointless as there is literally nothing under there. Second this will be copy and pasted because this was to good to not tell anyone else
: My upper and lower ball joints are shot and IMMEDIATELY needs to be replaced as there is no bushings at all in there and its metal on metal.
: My steering box is shot
: My trackbar and drag link is bent
: My springs and shocks need to be replaced
: My steering damper needs to be replaced
: My wheel bearings need to be replaced
: My sway bar needs to be replaced
: I also apparently need new axle mounts because mine are shot and my axle is quote on quote " Not even attached to the body"
And before i can even get an alignment i need brand new tires as well, So the grand total of the bill would be $3957.18...... Only an hour wasted
First off they told me theres an extra charge to clean underneath because its to dirty under there which i find very very stupid and pointless as there is literally nothing under there. Second this will be copy and pasted because this was to good to not tell anyone else
: My upper and lower ball joints are shot and IMMEDIATELY needs to be replaced as there is no bushings at all in there and its metal on metal.
: My steering box is shot
: My trackbar and drag link is bent
: My springs and shocks need to be replaced
: My steering damper needs to be replaced
: My wheel bearings need to be replaced
: My sway bar needs to be replaced
: I also apparently need new axle mounts because mine are shot and my axle is quote on quote " Not even attached to the body"
And before i can even get an alignment i need brand new tires as well, So the grand total of the bill would be $3957.18...... Only an hour wasted
That is quite the list... but maybe attack it starting with the most critical things first. I have to ask, what did you smack to bend the drag link and trackbar like that?
Either way, those are easy things to replace and aren't that expensive, especially if you do them yourself.
***As for the steering box ... when you're ready to attack that, PM me. I just got done with that PITA on mine.
Just go "a la carte" and you should be okay.
#17
Seasoned Member
$70-100 is about the range for a standard rear-wheel-drive alignment. Your pictures look like an average on-road vehicle to me. There are three aspects of a front axle alignment of which only two are adjustable on yours; Caster and Toe.
Your Jeep, if I recall, has offset-headed bolts that adjust caster. My '87 uses shims instead. I also live in the northeast. So, for my model year, it wouldn't be unusual for an alignment to cost more if it hadn't been done for a few years because the shims are rusted and frozen in place, assuming the two nuts on the back of the lower control arm bracket where the shims are inserted aren't seized. My Dodge Ram 2500 has the same design as your caster adjustment. And, those bolts seize after a few years of road salt. However, the caster shouldn't need much adjusting unless the control arms bent for whatever reason, the contro arm bushings are worn, or lots of other issues, necessitating repairing the problem first. The toe can change as your vehicle ages-- the coil springs settle causing the tires to point outward in front, and the steering center changes as the tie rod angle becomes shallow, all due to the nature of the geometry of its steering. The caster might change slightly negative as the rear springs settle, but shouldn't be that far off.
The rear is a solid axle with leaf springs, and thus isn't meant to be adjusted. It is close from the factory, but not perfect. If the rear is that bad, something is wrong. Vehicles with independent rear suspensions might have adjustments in the rear.
While an alignment can help a lot, it can not fix other mechanical issues.
Your Jeep, if I recall, has offset-headed bolts that adjust caster. My '87 uses shims instead. I also live in the northeast. So, for my model year, it wouldn't be unusual for an alignment to cost more if it hadn't been done for a few years because the shims are rusted and frozen in place, assuming the two nuts on the back of the lower control arm bracket where the shims are inserted aren't seized. My Dodge Ram 2500 has the same design as your caster adjustment. And, those bolts seize after a few years of road salt. However, the caster shouldn't need much adjusting unless the control arms bent for whatever reason, the contro arm bushings are worn, or lots of other issues, necessitating repairing the problem first. The toe can change as your vehicle ages-- the coil springs settle causing the tires to point outward in front, and the steering center changes as the tie rod angle becomes shallow, all due to the nature of the geometry of its steering. The caster might change slightly negative as the rear springs settle, but shouldn't be that far off.
The rear is a solid axle with leaf springs, and thus isn't meant to be adjusted. It is close from the factory, but not perfect. If the rear is that bad, something is wrong. Vehicles with independent rear suspensions might have adjustments in the rear.
While an alignment can help a lot, it can not fix other mechanical issues.
Last edited by ajpulley; 12-15-2017 at 09:35 PM.
#18
CF Veteran
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Groton, MA
Posts: 3,700
Received 236 Likes
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Year: 1995
Model: Cherokee(XJ)
Engine: I6 4.0L
If that's too dirty, you've eliminated 80% of your potential customer base.
Anything much cleaner than that is probably too new to need much service anyway.
I kinda write off the mechanics extreme terms.. like my wheel bearing "about to fall off" and then after having my entire rear brakes done (completely new hardware, drums, shoes and both e-brake cables) my mechanic was like "Those rear brakes were bad... they were f***king bad"... (I had to wonder, was he trying to proactively defend me asking why everything was being replaced? That's silly, I would have had everything replaced anyway since it's already apart...) And beyond that, the job was done... the Jeep's 22 years old and the e-brake was immovable... no **** the brakes were worn...
Anything much cleaner than that is probably too new to need much service anyway.
I kinda write off the mechanics extreme terms.. like my wheel bearing "about to fall off" and then after having my entire rear brakes done (completely new hardware, drums, shoes and both e-brake cables) my mechanic was like "Those rear brakes were bad... they were f***king bad"... (I had to wonder, was he trying to proactively defend me asking why everything was being replaced? That's silly, I would have had everything replaced anyway since it's already apart...) And beyond that, the job was done... the Jeep's 22 years old and the e-brake was immovable... no **** the brakes were worn...
#19
CF Veteran
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Groton, MA
Posts: 3,700
Received 236 Likes
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209 Posts
Year: 1995
Model: Cherokee(XJ)
Engine: I6 4.0L
I'd start with a second opinion on what needs to be done.
There are plenty of tests you can do yourself to get a better idea of how bad each possible bad part is.
There are also write ups on doing the "at home" alignment that you can do to get it close to right if you think it's way off.
There are plenty of tests you can do yourself to get a better idea of how bad each possible bad part is.
There are also write ups on doing the "at home" alignment that you can do to get it close to right if you think it's way off.
#20
CF Veteran
Thread Starter
$70-100 is about the range for a standard rear-wheel-drive alignment. Your pictures look like an average on-road vehicle to me. There are three aspects of a front axle alignment of which only two are adjustable on yours; Caster and Toe.
Your Jeep, if I recall, has offset-headed bolts that adjust caster. My '87 uses shims instead. I also live in the northeast. So, for my model year, it wouldn't be unusual for an alignment to cost more if it hadn't been done for a few years because the shims are rusted and frozen in place, assuming the two nuts on the back of the lower control arm bracket where the shims are inserted aren't seized. My Dodge Ram 2500 has the same design as your caster adjustment. And, those bolts seize after a few years of road salt. However, the caster shouldn't need much adjusting unless the control arms bent for whatever reason, the contro arm bushings are worn, or lots of other issues, necessitating repairing the problem first. The toe can change as your vehicle ages-- the coil springs settle causing the tires to point outward in front, and the steering center changes as the tie rod angle becomes shallow, all due to the nature of the geometry of its steering. The caster might change slightly negative as the rear springs settle, but shouldn't be that far off.
The rear is a solid axle with leaf springs, and thus isn't meant to be adjusted. It is close from the factory, but not perfect. If the rear is that bad, something is wrong. Vehicles with independent rear suspensions might have adjustments in the rear.
While an alignment can help a lot, it can not fix other mechanical issues.
Your Jeep, if I recall, has offset-headed bolts that adjust caster. My '87 uses shims instead. I also live in the northeast. So, for my model year, it wouldn't be unusual for an alignment to cost more if it hadn't been done for a few years because the shims are rusted and frozen in place, assuming the two nuts on the back of the lower control arm bracket where the shims are inserted aren't seized. My Dodge Ram 2500 has the same design as your caster adjustment. And, those bolts seize after a few years of road salt. However, the caster shouldn't need much adjusting unless the control arms bent for whatever reason, the contro arm bushings are worn, or lots of other issues, necessitating repairing the problem first. The toe can change as your vehicle ages-- the coil springs settle causing the tires to point outward in front, and the steering center changes as the tie rod angle becomes shallow, all due to the nature of the geometry of its steering. The caster might change slightly negative as the rear springs settle, but shouldn't be that far off.
The rear is a solid axle with leaf springs, and thus isn't meant to be adjusted. It is close from the factory, but not perfect. If the rear is that bad, something is wrong. Vehicles with independent rear suspensions might have adjustments in the rear.
While an alignment can help a lot, it can not fix other mechanical issues.
#21
CF Veteran
Thread Starter
I'd start with a second opinion on what needs to be done.
There are plenty of tests you can do yourself to get a better idea of how bad each possible bad part is.
There are also write ups on doing the "at home" alignment that you can do to get it close to right if you think it's way off.
There are plenty of tests you can do yourself to get a better idea of how bad each possible bad part is.
There are also write ups on doing the "at home" alignment that you can do to get it close to right if you think it's way off.
I may try that tho im not sure about it. And i know it needs work.... I mean 206k miles with original parts is bad yes but nothing like they said. I know the parts are worn but nothing catastrophic as they said. I wanted better tires because my current ones are terrible in the rain and basically anything that is not dry pavement... Kinda embarrassing when youre in 4wd stuck in your own back yard on some wet grass you know lol. So i wanted a more aggressive tire but also not have them get chewed up as fast as i expect them to last atleast a year because these ones are a tad bit worn as theyre used and already had the sides worn down i only got 2k miles out of them before the passenger side looks like bologna and feels like youre sliding a hot dog down a hallway with tile and the drivers side looks like it did before putting it on. I think the po hit a pretty good curb when doing a u turn lol the old rim had a huge scuff mark on the lip so thats a possibility. But like stated nothing is bent at all looks like any other jeeps drag link and track bar.
Last edited by EEVEE; 12-15-2017 at 10:18 PM.
#22
CF Veteran
Thread Starter
First thing I was going to say before I saw your "laundry list" post in the thread... was the upper and lower ball joints. Sounds like yours may be a little further gone than what I've heard a lot refer to as "memory steer".
That is quite the list... but maybe attack it starting with the most critical things first. I have to ask, what did you smack to bend the drag link and trackbar like that?
Either way, those are easy things to replace and aren't that expensive, especially if you do them yourself.
***As for the steering box ... when you're ready to attack that, PM me. I just got done with that PITA on mine.
Just go "a la carte" and you should be okay.
That is quite the list... but maybe attack it starting with the most critical things first. I have to ask, what did you smack to bend the drag link and trackbar like that?
Either way, those are easy things to replace and aren't that expensive, especially if you do them yourself.
***As for the steering box ... when you're ready to attack that, PM me. I just got done with that PITA on mine.
Just go "a la carte" and you should be okay.
#23
CF Veteran
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Groton, MA
Posts: 3,700
Received 236 Likes
on
209 Posts
Year: 1995
Model: Cherokee(XJ)
Engine: I6 4.0L
Get a second opinion - seriously.
8 years is actually a long time for front bearings (you know this because parts stores typical warranty is 1 year and even the Moog ones are only 3 typically)
Also, just my $.02, but I'd fix any front end items BEFORE putting new tires on it. Tires are expensive and you will ruin them if your front end stuff is bad. Unless you have some reason you must put tires on it, fix the other stuff first - you might be able to get a used set of tires if you're just going to burn them out.. just do your research and be smart about your choices.
8 years is actually a long time for front bearings (you know this because parts stores typical warranty is 1 year and even the Moog ones are only 3 typically)
Also, just my $.02, but I'd fix any front end items BEFORE putting new tires on it. Tires are expensive and you will ruin them if your front end stuff is bad. Unless you have some reason you must put tires on it, fix the other stuff first - you might be able to get a used set of tires if you're just going to burn them out.. just do your research and be smart about your choices.
#24
CF Veteran
Thread Starter
Get a second opinion - seriously.
8 years is actually a long time for front bearings (you know this because parts stores typical warranty is 1 year and even the Moog ones are only 3 typically)
Also, just my $.02, but I'd fix any front end items BEFORE putting new tires on it. Tires are expensive and you will ruin them if your front end stuff is bad. Unless you have some reason you must put tires on it, fix the other stuff first - you might be able to get a used set of tires if you're just going to burn them out.. just do your research and be smart about your choices.
8 years is actually a long time for front bearings (you know this because parts stores typical warranty is 1 year and even the Moog ones are only 3 typically)
Also, just my $.02, but I'd fix any front end items BEFORE putting new tires on it. Tires are expensive and you will ruin them if your front end stuff is bad. Unless you have some reason you must put tires on it, fix the other stuff first - you might be able to get a used set of tires if you're just going to burn them out.. just do your research and be smart about your choices.
#25
CF Veteran
You can replace all the stuff listed and do the alignment yourself for less than $500. I highly doubt half of that stuff is actually bad because if it was you would have a death wobble. You can check that stuff your self by getting underneath the front of the vehicle and having someone turn the wheel back and forth you can see if there is any play in the steering components, and track bar. You can check the wheel bearings by jacking the wheel up and seeing if there is any play in it. The ball joints can be checked by putting a prybar under the tire and prying up on it while you check for movement in the joints. Also what made them determine that the steering stabilizer was bad? The only way to test it is to take it off and see how easy it moves in and out, and your steering stabilizer and shocks don't affect the alignment.
#26
Seasoned Member
If you want to look at the Jeep yourself instead of just taking a shop's opinion:
Replace any of the four tie rod sockets that have play in them. Jack up the front
wheels and grab the tire at the 12 and 6 o'clock positions and try to move it.
If you feel play, then you can replace the ball joints (Spicer is the original
brand and is very reasonably priced).
Unless your front end is really messed up, or unless you have a lift kit
with adjustable control arms and ball joints, you can do the basic alignment
on your driveway. It is basically just twisting the tie rod to lengthen or shorten
it. Turn the steering wheel so the front wheels are eyeball straight, turn off
the motor, jack up the driver side wheel an inch off the ground. Then loosen
the nuts on the collars at each end of the straight tie rod. Place a long 2x4
across the front of the Jeep, touching the front of both tires, pick a tread groove
on each tire and mark the board where the groove hits, then put the board
behind the tires and mark where the same grooves hit. Then twist the tie
rod to shorten or lengthen it so the distance between the grooves in the front
of the tires is about 1/8 inch less than at the rear of the tires (the "toe-in").
Tighten up the collars and keep the 2x4 in your garage for next time.
If the steering wheel isn't straight after that, just loosen the 2 bolts on the
collar of the drag link, and turn the collar and that will move the steering
wheel. When you have it straight, tighten the collar back up and you're done.
Replace any of the four tie rod sockets that have play in them. Jack up the front
wheels and grab the tire at the 12 and 6 o'clock positions and try to move it.
If you feel play, then you can replace the ball joints (Spicer is the original
brand and is very reasonably priced).
Unless your front end is really messed up, or unless you have a lift kit
with adjustable control arms and ball joints, you can do the basic alignment
on your driveway. It is basically just twisting the tie rod to lengthen or shorten
it. Turn the steering wheel so the front wheels are eyeball straight, turn off
the motor, jack up the driver side wheel an inch off the ground. Then loosen
the nuts on the collars at each end of the straight tie rod. Place a long 2x4
across the front of the Jeep, touching the front of both tires, pick a tread groove
on each tire and mark the board where the groove hits, then put the board
behind the tires and mark where the same grooves hit. Then twist the tie
rod to shorten or lengthen it so the distance between the grooves in the front
of the tires is about 1/8 inch less than at the rear of the tires (the "toe-in").
Tighten up the collars and keep the 2x4 in your garage for next time.
If the steering wheel isn't straight after that, just loosen the 2 bolts on the
collar of the drag link, and turn the collar and that will move the steering
wheel. When you have it straight, tighten the collar back up and you're done.