EVcherokee

I've decided to keep and repair my non working AC system, which is still R-12.

First thought I had was to get a product like Freeze12 and top it off, but I later found out that all of those r12 replacements are just 134a with another refrigerant to carry the mineral oil.

I thought about getting my section 609 and refilling it with R-12, but wanted to get away from R12 because its no longer being made in the states, although mexico and india still make tons!

Anyway, next I thought about converting to 134a, but that is currently being phased out(even new vehicles) for its obvious flaws. It can't transfer as much heat as most refrigerants, requires special oil and is still ozone depleting.

After spending some time on the EPA website and various manufacturers sites I came across a product called Hot Shot or R-414 as known in the trade. R414 has almost identical characteristics to R12 and is still widely available and used. I'll still need my section 609 if I buy it, but thats only $20 and an online test. I'm thinking about having it properly emptied, replace the drier, hoses and pressure switch, then having it leak tested and filling it myself or leaving it to ac guy. One problem I forsee if I don't fill it, is finding a mechanic who knows about r414. The big advantage when replacing with R414, is the performance of it, I don't have to change anything at all, unlike a 134a swap and it doesn't run as hot as 134a either. Cost too, R414 is cheaper than 134a. Any input on this project? Any experience with R414?

I seriously thought too about yanking it out, but the broads like the AC, and I like the broads....so I like the AC.

Hommersimpson

retro fit to r134... get a can of oil charge.. and be done with it...only real issue with converting to R134 have been in older fords with there crappy a/c systems...i have done hundreds... just over charge just a tiny bit... and it will work fine...

djb383

Never heard of R414 but don't u still have to pull a vacuum on the system before adding whatever? Do u have a vacuum pump, high/low pressure gauges, a/c evap and cond flush, compressed air, etc., etc.? Just replaced all of our a/c except evap and cond....cold a/c is a very good thing.

xj_maniac_newb

YES you do, if you dont you'll more likely than not blow a gasket in the A/C system an d you'll leak all that coolant out over time (like a month or two)

just thought i'd throw that out there, know it really isnt helping the OP
i say if its supposed to work like r12 does then DO IT, r134a sucks compared to r12. at work we have a old ford truck with r12 and it beats my air BIG TIME, its like literally ice cold....i might even go as far to say its colder than the air in my dads new taco....and thats saying something

EVcherokee

Retro fitting to r134a properly involves changing a lot more including the compressor and a full system flush. The Sanden 508 is a r12 compressor and isn't designed to run at the temps that 134a cause. Besides 134a not being available in the near future(its being phased out), the boiling/dew pionts are about 20 degrees different between r414 and r134a. The difference between r12 and r414 is about 1 degree.

Right now I'm weight options, but I've heard a lot of XJ guys who switch to 134a aren't happy, so I'd rather just yank the whole thing than run 134a. Also with R414, I don't have to have anything flushed and can use the existing mineral oil in the system.

djb383

I've done 3 R12 to R134a conversions and have been very satisfied with R134a. The XJ a/c repairs we did a couple weeks ago wasn't a conversion but we're seeing 34F at the center vents.

EVcherokee

Yeah well you were getting 34F out of that AC because it wasn't a conversion. The XJ A/C system is fine, but not with R134a. Other than short term convience, I don't see any reason to convert to a refrigerant thats not being put in new cars starting in 2011, requires replacing more parts, and when I can't get more 134a, I'd have to switch it all back to a standard mineral oil system. R134a has already been banned in europe, like R12, and the EPA started the process to ban R134a here in the states back in 2009. HFO-1234yf is a very likely replacement for widespread use. I think thats the direction the EPA is going because, well, Honeywell with the help of The Dupont Corp. designed it.

R152a is another option the EPA and SAE communtiy are mulling over. I'm pretty sure that mercedes has started using R744, which is pure CO2. Thats kinda scary because that means a high side pressure of 1800-1900 psi and a low of 400 psi!!, but I bet it get cold

dyte2004

r134a is not banned in europe yet i had mine filled yesterday with it

EVcherokee

Your right, did some fact checking. Its not a total ban, its just for new autos and the ban got moved to Jan. 1 2011, same thing as whats gonna happen here in the states.

dyte2004

stupid goverments lol

phxmark

Not the government. The DuPont Corporation's patent on R-134 is expiring and they need something new to make money off of. When the patent expires, other companies won't have to pay manufacturing license fess to DuPont. DuPont will pay the gov't to ban R-134 so we have to buy a "new" refrigerant and retrofit out A/C systems AGAIN and then DuPont can start making money again off of manufacturing license fees. It is called planned obsolescence. Same thing happened to R-12 when R-12 was being banned.

EVcherokee

Not true, most of the refergerants we use today were invented in the 30's and 40's and many patents ran out in the 50's the some in the 60's. Along with DuPont, Atofina Chemicals (formerly Elf Atochem), Ineos Fluor (formerly ICI Klea) and Honeywell (formerly Allied Chemical and Allied-Signal) were all major vendors of R-12, and are today major suppliers of R-134a. The "other three" did not pay royalties to DuPont for their sales of R-12, and do not for R-134a. There are TONS of conspiracy theories involving R12 and R134a, most of these theories are started by people who have no knowledge of the history of refrigerants and what company makes what.

Another common myth is that R12 can't get to the ozone layer. R12 is heavier than air true, but so is water vapor(clouds), both are carried high into the atmoshpere by wind and thermal updrafts. If that myth were true, we'd all be dead because nitrogen is way heavier that oxygen, so that means, all the oxygen would be miles above us considering air is roughly %79 nitrogen.

R12 is also still being manufactured in mexico and india, although, importing is illegal, it happens

djb383

Converted a '79 Chevy Caprice, a '88 GMC p/u and a '92 Chevy p/u from R12 to R134a......had vent temps in the mid 30s on all 3 after the conversions.

EVcherokee

Glad to hear it worked out for you,.....but none of those vehicles use an XJ AC system. If your trying to sell me on R134a forget it, its an inferior, soon to be obsolete refrigerant. The numbers speak for themselves too, R134a is not as effective, as a refrigerant, as R12 or R414. The ONLY advantage to converting/using R134a now, is short term convenience or maintenance of an existing R134a system.

HFO-1234yf is suppose to be compatible in a R134a system, but they said the same thing about R134a when they phased out R12. HFO-1234yf also isn't as effective as a refrigerant R134a!!!