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jeep running rich, hard starting.

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Old 01-04-2010, 09:53 PM
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that makes sense, I have a fair amount of experience tuning efi from using Megasquirt on projects.

This is why i originally thought CTS, because the coolant temp is the primary sensor used for determining the addition fuel on cold start.

Also it idles fine after start, warm or cold, and starts fine when warm or stone cold, so I think the idle air control motor is fine. Put a different O2 in so well see if that works, other than that maybe injector?

Also, ive seen a couple post about Coolant temp sensor locations, not to sound retarded, but there is only one CTS on a 98 correct (T stat housing).

Last edited by nichols735; 01-04-2010 at 10:48 PM.
Old 10-31-2010, 11:49 AM
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Did you ever figure this out? My 01 is doing the same thing, and has been for a year now. I just replaced the fuel pump, 3 days started right up, but was colder. Now is back to it's same old not starting when WARM. Please let me know if the CTS fixed it, I was about to buy one today....or soon. Thanks so much for any help. YOUR PROBLEM is my problem. Also got a code 0455 Large Evap Leak.

Last edited by Peeper; 10-31-2010 at 05:53 PM.
Old 10-31-2010, 05:54 PM
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Just checked to see if I had a vacuum leak of any kind, sprayed around manifold and intake and hoses...no idle change. I really hope someone can help, I am at a loss. I've posted this same thing many of times, and don't get replies....HELP Jeep Repair God!
Old 10-31-2010, 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by rustcollector
Not sure about the 4.0 engine as I have a turbo diesel, but I build fuel injected race engines so do have quite a bit of experience with many types of manufacturer fuel injection systems.
The symptoms you have described sounds very much like you have a fault with the cold starting system.
Now virtually all injection systems have one of to types of cold start devices fitted.
Option 1. The 6 cylinder 4.0 engine you have may have a seventh injector fitted to the inlet manifold so it injects extra fuel and acts like the choke system on a carb. It gives more fuel until a certain temperature is achieved and then shuts off. This is often controlled by a very cheap engine block mounted temperature sender that sometimes has a dual function in that it supplies info to the guage on the instrument cluster. If you have noticed wierd temp readings on the dash, it may well be this little devil . It is usually this cheap little sender that is the culprit.
Option 2. The inlet manifold has a bypass system. Sometimes part of the manifold but more usually a seperate device made of moulded plastic or cast aluminium. It is a rotary valve in a tube.
This works by being in the open position when the engine is at normal temp so the engine is drawing say 95% of it's air through the inlet system fom the filter and the other 5% through the valve that is piped of after the filter and rejoins the inlet manifold near the throttle body. For a cold start, the valve is closed, so the engine gets an artificially rich mixture as it still injects the same amount of fuel but is receiving 5% less air. So it still acts like a choke on a carb. The valve is sometimes operated by a water feed and a bi-metallic spring and sometimes(more common) by a small stepper motor. The valve usually siezes and 99% of the time it does this in the shut position so the vehicle is always in cold start mode, thereby running rich and difficult to start when warm. It can be removed from the vehicle (noting which way round all the pipes go and take the multiplug wire off. Clean with an aerosol can of carb cleaner and a toothbrush. (use the wifes, not your own!). Replace and hey presto!

As I say I am not overly familiar with the 4.0 6cyl engine but I would bet it uses option 2.
I hope this helps.
Darren.
Feel free to ask me any other questions.
4.0 sensors that control amount of air at cold start..

IAC or TPS.. ??

Also leaking injectors causing rich mixture..

Last edited by 98jeepsrt6; 10-31-2010 at 07:27 PM.
Old 11-01-2010, 08:51 AM
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I was under the impression that the IAC, TPS, and an injector problem would throw a code. Am I wrong? I am about at my wits end on this, I don't want to wear out a perfectly good starter, and plus it running rich can't be good. I've already thrown money were I didn't need to i.e. Map Sensor, New Air Filter, Fuel Pump... I just don't know what else this could be with it not throwing a code.
Old 11-01-2010, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Peeper
I was under the impression that the IAC, TPS, and an injector problem would throw a code. Am I wrong? I am about at my wits end on this, I don't want to wear out a perfectly good starter, and plus it running rich can't be good. I've already thrown money were I didn't need to i.e. Map Sensor, New Air Filter, Fuel Pump... I just don't know what else this could be with it not throwing a code.
i Dont think those will through a code they just go bad.. Also i was wondering if you have done a compression test, just to see how your compressions are. The idle air control, regulates the amount of air coming into the throttle while the engine is at idle... The TPS basically reads the throttle butterfly position and will send signal to ECU and will help determine fuel trim..

Also have you checked rail pressure? Since you changed the pump just check if its giving good amount of pressure at the rail.. Injectors.. are you getting fuel into the cylinders??

This is silly Q but when you did the plugs and wire did you put the wire in the correct order?
Old 11-01-2010, 09:52 PM
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wow, really digging up an old thread here. I really like when that happens, but unfourtunately I dont have any good info for you, i mean nada. My solution was just to give up and live with it. I did end up replacing the CTS, but i didnt notice any difference. It still starts hard when cold and has since developed a bit of a miss at idle, does't die, but definately a stumble. I did since then also replace the fuel injectors to some neon injectors.

so lets brainstorm...
I really think its a spark problem, namely something in the distib.
I have replaced cap, rotor, plugs, wires, and coil in a tune up a while back, so dist. is the only thing remaining. A spark miss can very easily cause some hard starting a poor combustion causing the raw fuel smell i get.
Fuel system compenents, well there is only two, and I have tested the injectors, so I guess it could be the pump, but i like leaning toward the dist. first since it it easier to remove, haha

One more thing, crank position sensor is also something i've tossed around. If the PCM is periodically loosing sync than the triggering of the coil is going to be off. this is especially trouble some when trying to start. PCM syncing with the CPS is critical, very critical for ease of starting

Anyway sorry no silver bullet. I have been searching for a decent used dist from a part out to try and see if anything changes, will post if i get to try it


Ben

Last edited by nichols735; 11-01-2010 at 09:57 PM. Reason: added some add. info
Old 11-02-2010, 10:45 PM
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update:

Was looking at some OBD data while running...
Idle timing fluctuates from about 13.5 to 19 degrees btdc at idle

does anyone know what would cause this amount of timing adjustment at idle. I know ect, iat, map all cause timing adjustments, but 6 degrees seems like a lot. I can't see any one of thse sensors causing that much adjustment

Ben
Old 11-03-2010, 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by 98jeepsrt6
i Dont think those will through a code they just go bad.. Also i was wondering if you have done a compression test, just to see how your compressions are. The idle air control, regulates the amount of air coming into the throttle while the engine is at idle... The TPS basically reads the throttle butterfly position and will send signal to ECU and will help determine fuel trim..

Also have you checked rail pressure? Since you changed the pump just check if its giving good amount of pressure at the rail.. Injectors.. are you getting fuel into the cylinders??

This is silly Q but when you did the plugs and wire did you put the wire in the correct order?
Ok, update, the jeep is at the factory dealer, it's great they said they can't figure it out, dollar signs, oye. Good to know that they will not throw a code, I thought they did, being sensors. If I get the jeep back and still have money I will start knocking these things out. Also I have NOT done Coil Pack and Plugs yet, was going to do them today, but Jeep is still at dealer. When I changed the fuel pump, the old ones filter was floating in the bottom, I ran sea foam through it cleaning up the injectors. I have done a fuel pressure test before the pump swap, it read 45 at start and idle, but bled off quickly to 20 within 20 minutes. I can do another when I change the plugs. The reason I have not changed the TPS or IAC is I don't have all symptoms for them, and lots of People on here says it didn't change the hard start. If I get this figure out BEN I will post immediately, B/C your deal is exactly what's going on with mine. Cheers and thanks for the input. Jenn

Last edited by Peeper; 11-03-2010 at 07:43 AM.
Old 11-03-2010, 07:39 AM
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so I guess it could be the pump, but i like leaning toward the dist. first since it it easier to remove, haha

Ben[/QUOTE]
Old 11-03-2010, 07:42 AM
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BEN! it's not that hard, I'm a girl and my dad and I changed it no probs, just need someone helping it's a little awkward, and breaking the bolts loose without breaking any I feel was the hardest part. It helped mine for 3 days it fired right up, then went back to being ... well you know what.
Old 11-09-2010, 06:24 AM
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UPDATE: so I took my jeep to the dealer, had them diagnose my problem. They told me it was my CAMSHAFT POSITION SENSOR, AND MY CRANKSHAFT POSITION SENSOR. They wanted 605 + tax to fix it, I was like yeah right I'll change them. So I did last night, NOTHING, Jeep actually takes LONGER to start now. So I checked my injectors with a ohm meter, and all came up between 14.1-14.5 which I do believe is around where the Jeep should be at 15. So I then proceeded to test my CTS sensor and nothing. So I'm going to replace the CTS, after this I am forever wondering if this does not fix it. UGH, stupid dealer. I'm just glad I'm inclined enough to pass on their ridiculous price.
Old 11-09-2010, 06:27 AM
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Oh and did another fuel pressure test last night, it was at 45 at key on, 50 idling, and dropped to 20 in roughly 30minutes, that's why I checked injectors. Injectors will cause a vehicle to not start when warm, but cold it will start all day. Rough idle, strong smell of gas, hard start, and declined gas mileage. I thought for sure I had a bad injector, but appears not to be the case.
Old 11-09-2010, 07:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Peeper
Oh and did another fuel pressure test last night, it was at 45 at key on, 50 idling, and dropped to 20 in roughly 30minutes, that's why I checked injectors. Injectors will cause a vehicle to not start when warm, but cold it will start all day. Rough idle, strong smell of gas, hard start, and declined gas mileage. I thought for sure I had a bad injector, but appears not to be the case.
So on your second test you had the same problem that your pressure begins at startup around 45 to 50psi.. and then slowly drops down to 20?

It can still be a couple injectors.. even though they seem to work properly.. The inner mechanic can be bad.. You mentioned that the filter was completely off when you pulled the pump, which means you probably sucked up some nasty ****. You ran seafoam through but if there was any very small pebble like objects in your tank then it could have jammed one or two of the injector... Just a thought..

If your CAM sensor doesnt help, next thing i would do is pull the rail and test the injectors.. The way i did was pulled the rail with injectors still on and fuel line attached put some blue rags in front of each and turn the key. I had six marking of fuel on my rags with a consistent spray pattern.. Also prim the pump a couple times and see if your have a fuel coming out of the injectors will its just sitting there.. Then do a pressure test again.. You have a fuel deliver problem.

Good luck keep us posted

Last edited by 98jeepsrt6; 11-09-2010 at 07:32 AM.
Old 11-10-2010, 07:17 PM
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Today, tested the Coolant Temp Sensor, it was within proper range for temperature of engine, also tested the Air Intake Temperature Sensor, once again reading in proper range. I have an appointment on Monday for my LARGE evap leak, wouldn't it be hilarious if this was my problem. I will try to do the injector test the other way for I have used a screw driver to listen to any clunking noises, and ran an ohm meter on all of them, all between 14.1-14.5. You all know this is something that probably cost a $1.80.


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