O2 sensor issues?
#181
CF Veteran
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 7,964
Likes: 957
From: Lost in the wilds of Virginia
Year: 1998 Classic (I'll get it running soon....) and 02 Grand
Model: Cherokee (XJ)
Engine: 4.0
I know how to do a continuity test. I'm an engineer. I'm trying to find out how YOU did a continuity test, so I can help you. I have no idea if you know what you are doing or not. You might, or you might not. You might not, but think you do, in which case, you'll draw wrong conclusions.
#182
CF Veteran
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 2,800
Likes: 179
From: syracuse ny
Year: 1997
Model: Grand Cherokee (ZJ)
Engine: 4.0, new lifters valve job with new springs and exhaust valves, preload set with shims
I know how to do a continuity test. I'm an engineer. I'm trying to find out how YOU did a continuity test, so I can help you. I have no idea if you know what you are doing or not. You might, or you might not. You might not, but think you do, in which case, you'll draw wrong conclusions.
Nah, I'll wait for it.
#183
Thread Starter
Member
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 132
Likes: 1
From: arizona
Year: 1990
Model: Cherokee (XJ)
Engine: 4.0
I know how to do a continuity test. I'm an engineer. I'm trying to find out how YOU did a continuity test, so I can help you. I have no idea if you know what you are doing or not. You might, or you might not. You might not, but think you do, in which case, you'll draw wrong conclusions.
I put a safety pin into pin 85 on the FP and ran a long jumper wire into the cab down to my computer plug, which I had disconnected from the computer. I then set my meter to ohms. I then put one lead to the jumper wire and the other lead to pin A5 on the ECU plug which is the computer ground for the pin 85 on the FP. Ohms read was 0.. Not OL. I then did the same thing between pin 85 on O2 and pin A7 and got the same results.
Pin 85 on the o2 and pin 85 on the fuel pump had a jumper wire between the two. That's how the fuel pump gets power. The fuel pump does shut off after couple seconds when key is turned to on position. So the fuel pump works fine. The issue is pin 87a is the power for the o2 sensor.
Last edited by randy61; 06-07-2019 at 08:21 PM.
#184
CF Veteran
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 3,297
Likes: 375
From: Connecticut
Year: 2000
Model: Cherokee (XJ)
Engine: 4.0
OK maybe that's not the right Forum Rule...
Would it help if we deleted the comments about Gal Gadot and Sofia Vergara?
#185
CF Veteran
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 3,297
Likes: 375
From: Connecticut
Year: 2000
Model: Cherokee (XJ)
Engine: 4.0
IMO you should test who is hot on the F22 14OR circuit. With relay out and key off, check it at the EGR solenoid, the fuel injectors, power steering pump, and the fuel pump. Recheck the Oxygen Sensor Heater and AC (you previously got power and no power, respectively for those 2).
Last edited by Dave51; 06-08-2019 at 05:24 AM.
#186
CF Veteran
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 3,297
Likes: 375
From: Connecticut
Year: 2000
Model: Cherokee (XJ)
Engine: 4.0
Did you try changing out the ECU as noted in your other thread?
With the ECU unplugged, see if the Oxygen Sensor Heater still has power with KEY Off. With nothing obviously smoked in the ECU, I'm thinking any remaining ECU issues would result in stuff NOT getting power, rather than getting power inappropriately.
With the ECU unplugged, see if the Oxygen Sensor Heater still has power with KEY Off. With nothing obviously smoked in the ECU, I'm thinking any remaining ECU issues would result in stuff NOT getting power, rather than getting power inappropriately.
#187
CF Veteran
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 3,297
Likes: 375
From: Connecticut
Year: 2000
Model: Cherokee (XJ)
Engine: 4.0
BTW what scale were you using? All metals have some resistance, so perhaps you needed to be on a more sensitive scale (although for your test, knowing that it isn't OL is plenty).
#188
Thread Starter
Member
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 132
Likes: 1
From: arizona
Year: 1990
Model: Cherokee (XJ)
Engine: 4.0
I did plug in the other ECU... no changes.
Great tips. Will make those tests next.
Had it set to continuity.
IMO you should test who is hot on the F22 14OR circuit. With relay out and key off, check it at the EGR solenoid, the fuel injectors, power steering pump, and the fuel pump. Recheck the Oxygen Sensor Heater and AC (you previously got power and no power, respectively for those 2). (see if the Oxygen Sensor Heater still has power with KEY Off.
Had it set to continuity.
Last edited by randy61; 06-08-2019 at 07:10 PM.
#189
Thread Starter
Member
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 132
Likes: 1
From: arizona
Year: 1990
Model: Cherokee (XJ)
Engine: 4.0
Because the fix doesn't do anything.
With the wire switch, the AC clutch will receive power directly from the fuel pump relay, but the AC clutch relay switch is controlled by the AC control switch, which now controls both the AC Clutch and the AC. Since both of those circuits are 12V it doesn't make any difference.
As to why the change, got me. Perhaps after the fuel pump relay problem (and there still is a fuel pump relay problem) the AC didn't work (because Orange/Black was dead). The OP changed Lt. Gr. and Orange/Bl in an attempt to energize AC Clutch Relay, but of course it wouldn't work. Then the jumper idea came up and now the AC works so he just left it.
With the wire switch, the AC clutch will receive power directly from the fuel pump relay, but the AC clutch relay switch is controlled by the AC control switch, which now controls both the AC Clutch and the AC. Since both of those circuits are 12V it doesn't make any difference.
As to why the change, got me. Perhaps after the fuel pump relay problem (and there still is a fuel pump relay problem) the AC didn't work (because Orange/Black was dead). The OP changed Lt. Gr. and Orange/Bl in an attempt to energize AC Clutch Relay, but of course it wouldn't work. Then the jumper idea came up and now the AC works so he just left it.
#190
Thread Starter
Member
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 132
Likes: 1
From: arizona
Year: 1990
Model: Cherokee (XJ)
Engine: 4.0
So if I'm visualizing your test correctly, this test shows that those wires are in flawless condition.
IMO you should test who is hot on the F22 14OR circuit. With relay out and key off, check it at the EGR solenoid, the fuel injectors, power steering pump, and the fuel pump. Recheck the Oxygen Sensor Heater and AC (you previously got power and no power, respectively for those 2).
IMO you should test who is hot on the F22 14OR circuit. With relay out and key off, check it at the EGR solenoid, the fuel injectors, power steering pump, and the fuel pump. Recheck the Oxygen Sensor Heater and AC (you previously got power and no power, respectively for those 2).
Supprise, New Test Results Today.
Tested power at fuel pump connector. Key off got no power. Key on got power. With the jumper wire out, there was no power to the fuel pump connector with either key on or off.
Checked power to O2 with key off, key on and start. Like before, I had 12v with key off, but it dropped to 0v with the key on while the fuel pump was priming. Once the fuel pump stopped priming after 2-3 seconds, the o2 voltage went back to 12v. Started the engine and the O2 voltage dropped to 0v again. Something new engine running o2 gets no power.
The way I see it, there is something wrong with the F22 14OR circuit because pin 87 on the fuel pump relay should not have any power with the key off.
Suspecting there is a short in the F22 14OR circuit causing pin 87 to be hot. This in turn is causing the O2 to pull voltage from the battery.
Also, with the fuel pump relay and O2 relay sharing the ECU ground, the computer cuts ground to the O2 relay for the heater to turn on, but the relay is still energized from the fuel pump relay ground.
Likely, the O2 heater will never work until the o2/FP jumper wire mystery is solved.
Last edited by randy61; 06-09-2019 at 12:50 AM.
#191
CF Veteran
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 3,297
Likes: 375
From: Connecticut
Year: 2000
Model: Cherokee (XJ)
Engine: 4.0
With all relays in, jumper out, and Key OFF, test for power at at the EGR solenoid, the fuel injectors, power steering pump, fuel pump, oxygen sensor heater and AC.
If none of them have power, try the back-up ECU as I'm thinking A5 is broken.
If any of them have power pull the plug on the ECU and see if they still have power.
Pull the covers off the ECUs again and note the uF of the 3 radial capacitors in each (why are 2 of them orange)? Are any of them bulging?
#192
CF Veteran
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 7,964
Likes: 957
From: Lost in the wilds of Virginia
Year: 1998 Classic (I'll get it running soon....) and 02 Grand
Model: Cherokee (XJ)
Engine: 4.0
No, I don't think I know what I am doing because I don't, for the most part.
I put a safety pin into pin 85 on the FP and ran a long jumper wire into the cab down to my computer plug, which I had disconnected from the computer. I then set my meter to ohms. I then put one lead to the jumper wire and the other lead to pin A5 on the ECU plug which is the computer ground for the pin 85 on the FP. Ohms read was 0.. Not OL. I then did the same thing between pin 85 on O2 and pin A7 and got the same results.
Pin 85 on the o2 and pin 85 on the fuel pump had a jumper wire between the two. That's how the fuel pump gets power. The fuel pump does shut off after couple seconds when key is turned to on position. So the fuel pump works fine. The issue is pin 87a is the power for the o2 sensor.
I put a safety pin into pin 85 on the FP and ran a long jumper wire into the cab down to my computer plug, which I had disconnected from the computer. I then set my meter to ohms. I then put one lead to the jumper wire and the other lead to pin A5 on the ECU plug which is the computer ground for the pin 85 on the FP. Ohms read was 0.. Not OL. I then did the same thing between pin 85 on O2 and pin A7 and got the same results.
Pin 85 on the o2 and pin 85 on the fuel pump had a jumper wire between the two. That's how the fuel pump gets power. The fuel pump does shut off after couple seconds when key is turned to on position. So the fuel pump works fine. The issue is pin 87a is the power for the o2 sensor.
Oh, there you are!
Sorry, I lost this thread. Forgot which one it was, actually, and had trouble finding my way back.
I'm suspicious of your continuity test. A reading of ZERO ohms is just hard to believe. You should see a few, at least. Two questions:
- What resistance (ohms) range did you use for the test? OR is this an autoranging meter? (I hate autoranging!)
- Was the battery connected or disconnected when you performed the continuity tests? It should be DISCONNECTED and time allowed for any capacitors to discharge. (And you have a few pretty good sized caps in your PCM!)
#193
Thread Starter
Member
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 132
Likes: 1
From: arizona
Year: 1990
Model: Cherokee (XJ)
Engine: 4.0
Oh, there you are!
Sorry, I lost this thread. Forgot which one it was, actually, and had trouble finding my way back.
I'm suspicious of your continuity test. A reading of ZERO ohms is just hard to believe. You should see a few, at least. Two questions:
Sorry, I lost this thread. Forgot which one it was, actually, and had trouble finding my way back.
I'm suspicious of your continuity test. A reading of ZERO ohms is just hard to believe. You should see a few, at least. Two questions:
- What resistance (ohms) range did you use for the test? OR is this an autoranging meter? (I hate autoranging!)
- Was the battery connected or disconnected when you performed the continuity tests? It should be DISCONNECTED and time allowed for any capacitors to discharge. (And you have a few pretty good sized caps in your PCM!)
Had meter set to continuity.
I did the continuity test between the wires in question and where they ended up at the ECU connectors.
What are caps? I got two ECU's as the FSM calls them, and all the components are the same on each, for the most part, so I don't think any of them are out of the ordinary.
#194
Thread Starter
Member
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 132
Likes: 1
From: arizona
Year: 1990
Model: Cherokee (XJ)
Engine: 4.0
Actually, that test is showing there ISN'T a short, because everything on that list should have been hot.
With all relays in, jumper out, and Key OFF, test for power at the EGR solenoid, the fuel injectors, power steering pump, fuel pump, oxygen sensor heater and AC.
If none of them have power, try the back-up ECU as I'm thinking A5 is broken. If any of them have power pull the plug on the ECU and see if they still have power.
Pull the covers off the ECUs again and note the uF of the 3 radial capacitors in each (why are 2 of them orange)? Are any of them bulging?
With all relays in, jumper out, and Key OFF, test for power at the EGR solenoid, the fuel injectors, power steering pump, fuel pump, oxygen sensor heater and AC.
If none of them have power, try the back-up ECU as I'm thinking A5 is broken. If any of them have power pull the plug on the ECU and see if they still have power.
Pull the covers off the ECUs again and note the uF of the 3 radial capacitors in each (why are 2 of them orange)? Are any of them bulging?
What is there to check on the AC? The only connector plug is to the clutch bit it works fine.
Pulled ECU covers and inspected real carefully. Some of the orange capacitors, don't know why 2 of them are orange, were thinner than others but were exactly the same on both. The cylinder shaped capacitors had no bulging. In fact nothing at all looked bad.
#195
CF Veteran
Joined: Jan 2017
Posts: 3,297
Likes: 375
From: Connecticut
Year: 2000
Model: Cherokee (XJ)
Engine: 4.0
Cannot check power steering because there is no electrical plug to it.
What is there to check on the AC?
Some of the orange capacitors, don't know why 2 of them are orange, were thinner than others but were exactly the same on both.
Last edited by Dave51; 06-10-2019 at 04:41 AM.