oil pan off (SLUDGE) 150k miles.. suggestions?..............
01-25-2010 | 09:44 PM
#17
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From: New Jersey
Year: 1996
Model: Cherokee
Engine: 4.0 HO
If you can't get the bolt out, you could always buy the tabs used to hold down the valve covers better and put them on the surrounding bolts to apply more pressure to the area. These are the things I'm talking about if you don't understand http://www.streetperformance.com/ART...00778/4993.jpg .
01-25-2010 | 10:08 PM
#18
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Model: Cherokee
it doesnt matter what type of oil or filter you use. its all opinion. all are equal and meet the same requirements or they could not put them on the market. the problem is the short "hops" when the engine is cold and you run to the store or a short ride to work and home. if you dont get the engine up to operating temp and maintain for a while. you will sludge the motor. doesnt matter is its valvoline, pennzoil, quaker state, castor. if you dont get it up to temp, it will sludge, if you dont change it regularly it will sludge.
01-25-2010 | 10:10 PM
#19
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it doesnt matter what type of oil or filter you use. its all opinion. all are equal and meet the same requirements or they could not put them on the market. the problem is the short "hops" when the engine is cold and you run to the store or a short ride to work and home. if you dont get the engine up to operating temp and maintain for a while. you will sludge the motor. doesnt matter is its valvoline, pennzoil, quaker state, castor. if you dont get it up to temp, it will sludge, if you dont change it regularly it will sludge.
Here's some reading for you:
this: http://www.knizefamily.net/minimopar...reference.html
and this: http://www.knizefamily.net/minimopar/oil.html
Last edited by ZachsXJ; 01-25-2010 at 10:15 PM.
01-25-2010 | 10:29 PM
#20
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Joined: Dec 2009
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Year: 2001
Model: Cherokee
Engine: 4 liter
Actualy true
A member of my family left his car in the hand of his mechanically inept and carefree family while he was out of the country on business. Well it was a miracal if they checked the oil let alone changed it. Needless to say,one day it would not turn over. Turns out the pan was filled to the rim with sludge. CHANGE YOUR OIL AND FILTER 4 TIMES A YEAR ANY API APPROVED BRAND IS BETTER THAN OLD GOOD STUFF. It's important,(this message brought to you by the American Petroleum Institute) Yes ,change the oil pump.
01-25-2010 | 10:37 PM
#21
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Model: Cherokee
we all have opinions on what is right or wrong. the oil/filter debate has gone on since out grandfathers were changing there oil. is there a correct filter or oil one should use? its entirley up to opinion. you use what you want or prefer.
01-25-2010 | 10:44 PM
#22
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did you read either of the links that I posted? its not a matter of opinion, there is tons of scientific proof that some oil filters are better than others(Purolator and Mobile 1 are among the better ones)(and fram is total crap) and the same goes for oils, Cheap oil is not as good as high-quality full synthetic oil.
01-25-2010 | 11:08 PM
#23
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Model: Cherokee
like i said, it's all a matter of opinion. we're all here to help one another. not to get into a pissing match over what is best. i work on $1,000,000+ cat equipment on a daily basis. they're quality control is far beyond that of the automotive industry. I am simply stating that if it meets API requirements, then it will be okay to use in your run of the mill XJ.
i went to the links you posted. and this is the final statement on the bottom of the first link
If you want to hear my opinion take a look at the Oil Filters Revealed: Opinions and Recommendations page. Which filter is the best? There is no easy answer to that one. It depends on what kind of oil you use and how much you are willing to spend.
your second link based on one mans research by Mark Lawrence. No matter what type of oil you choose, there are a few universal constants about engine oil. The first is change it regularly!
right form you're links. there is no right or wrong answer. only routine maintanence.
i went to the links you posted. and this is the final statement on the bottom of the first link
If you want to hear my opinion take a look at the Oil Filters Revealed: Opinions and Recommendations page. Which filter is the best? There is no easy answer to that one. It depends on what kind of oil you use and how much you are willing to spend.
your second link based on one mans research by Mark Lawrence. No matter what type of oil you choose, there are a few universal constants about engine oil. The first is change it regularly!
right form you're links. there is no right or wrong answer. only routine maintanence.
01-26-2010 | 01:36 AM
#24
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 321
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Year: 1990 Renix
Model: Cherokee
Engine: 4.0L
LOTS or research and argument resolved (hopefully).... (SLUDGE).. ATF flush... 50/50
I wouldnt use a fram filter, they suck. why fram oil filters suck and look in the "Controversy" section of the page. I still wouldn't trust the premium fram. JMO though.
The broken bolt, shoulnt matter much, unless it leaks from there. I would have done everything you have done thus far, then put everything back together and see if there are any leaks, especially where the broken bolt is located.
The broken bolt, shoulnt matter much, unless it leaks from there. I would have done everything you have done thus far, then put everything back together and see if there are any leaks, especially where the broken bolt is located.
Fram standard filters are crap.
but the Fram Tough Guard ones are actually mediocre. He actually included them in his list of recommended filters.
personally, now knowing they also have cardboard in them i'm going to stop using them. but i did get two for free so hey... why not use them until i have to buy a different kind?
good luck with the oil pan drop and all bro. replace that main rear seal while youre down there. and attach the gasket to the block, not to the pan.
Edit: didnt see you just did the rear main and havent had much mileage on it. its probably fine to leave it in that case. but it could possibly be a culprit...
but the Fram Tough Guard ones are actually mediocre. He actually included them in his list of recommended filters.
personally, now knowing they also have cardboard in them i'm going to stop using them. but i did get two for free so hey... why not use them until i have to buy a different kind?
good luck with the oil pan drop and all bro. replace that main rear seal while youre down there. and attach the gasket to the block, not to the pan.
Edit: didnt see you just did the rear main and havent had much mileage on it. its probably fine to leave it in that case. but it could possibly be a culprit...
question:
do I need to seperate the transmission from the motor to install the rear main? And you said to attach the gasket to the block.. not the pan.. but the oil pan gasket is all one piece so.. I think I need a write up on this.. sure there is one on here somewhere.. I'll check but post it if you know where a good one is..
Thanks
For starters don't use a Fram filter, use either a mobile 1 or a Purolator filter. They are the best on the market.
I'd recommend cleaning as much out with shop rag as you can get to, and depending on how seriously you want to de-sludge your engine I'd either,
Go this route: http://www.auto-rx.com/
or run a cheap oil for 500 miles, seafoam it, drive it for 20 miles, drain the oil, refill with 3 qts auto trans fluid, and 3qts cheap oil(with a decent filter change also), run for 20 minutes and swap to a cheap oil for 1,000 miles and then do a change to your preferred oil and filter.
I'd recommend cleaning as much out with shop rag as you can get to, and depending on how seriously you want to de-sludge your engine I'd either,
Go this route: http://www.auto-rx.com/
or run a cheap oil for 500 miles, seafoam it, drive it for 20 miles, drain the oil, refill with 3 qts auto trans fluid, and 3qts cheap oil(with a decent filter change also), run for 20 minutes and swap to a cheap oil for 1,000 miles and then do a change to your preferred oil and filter.
As for the oil flush.. read below too.. but I like your approach..
If you can't get the bolt out, you could always buy the tabs used to hold down the valve covers better and put them on the surrounding bolts to apply more pressure to the area. These are the things I'm talking about if you don't understand http://www.streetperformance.com/ART...00778/4993.jpg .
it doesnt matter what type of oil or filter you use. its all opinion. all are equal and meet the same requirements or they could not put them on the market. the problem is the short "hops" when the engine is cold and you run to the store or a short ride to work and home. if you dont get the engine up to operating temp and maintain for a while. you will sludge the motor. doesnt matter is its valvoline, pennzoil, quaker state, castor. if you dont get it up to temp, it will sludge, if you dont change it regularly it will sludge.
A member of my family left his car in the hand of his mechanically inept and carefree family while he was out of the country on business. Well it was a miracal if they checked the oil let alone changed it. Needless to say,one day it would not turn over. Turns out the pan was filled to the rim with sludge. CHANGE YOUR OIL AND FILTER 4 TIMES A YEAR ANY API APPROVED BRAND IS BETTER THAN OLD GOOD STUFF. It's important,(this message brought to you by the American Petroleum Institute) Yes ,change the oil pump.
Okay.. I looked at all posts and looked at the links.. and it is a he said he said to some degree.. Apparently.. the governing bodys over oil quality API (American Petroleum Institute), and the European counterpart, the ACEA (Association des Constructeurs Europeens d'Automobiles - which was the CCMC) both have standards of excellence that must be met to dawn the mark of approval from each. Still.. I asked an automotive tech. student who eats/sleeps/breaths everything automotive, just to see if he had an oppinion (I knew he would). He told me that his instructor wanted to PROVE his claim that "some are better than others even if they have a seal of approval." He did this by bringing in several of the leading filters and cutting them open to discuss the good vs. the good enough..
Fram is not the better of the bunch apparently.. I will ask for pictures and will post them on this thread if I get them. Fram does use cardboard and glue that can fall apart if left to run longer than the 3,000 miles usually accepted to be the replacement point. Now that synthetic fluids allow a motor to last longer between changes.. a "subpar" filter is not the better choice.
The 2 filters that were the most impressive were Mobil 1 and Purolator..
as for an oil flush...:
Unless there's something seriously wrong with your engine, like you've filled it with milk or shampoo, you really ought never to need a flushing oil. If you're transitioning from a mineral oil to a synthetic oil, likewise you probably don't need to flush the engine first.
If you do decide to do an oil flush, first drain your engine of all it's oil, but leave the old oil filter in place. Next fill it up with flushing oil and run it at a fast idle for about 20 minutes. Finally, drain all this off (and marvel at the crap that comes out with it), replace the oil filter, refill with a good synthetic oil and voila! Clean engine.
Of course, like most things nowadays, there's a condition attached when using flushing oils. In an old engine you really don't want to remove all the deposits. Some of these deposits help seal rings, lifters and even some of the flanges between the heads, covers, pan and the block, where the gaskets are thin. I have heard of engines with over 280,000km that worked fine, but when flushed it failed in a month because the blow-by past the scraper ring (now really clean) contaminated the oil and screwed the rod bearings.
QUOTED: http://www.carbibles.com/engineoil_bible.html
01-26-2010 | 01:53 AM
#25
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question:
do I need to seperate the transmission from the motor to install the rear main? And you said to attach the gasket to the block.. not the pan.. but the oil pan gasket is all one piece so.. I think I need a write up on this.. sure there is one on here somewhere.. I'll check but post it if you know where a good one is..
From what I've read, and seen you can do a RMS with the engine and transmission still mated together...apparently its actually quite a simple and easy job to do, I've heard a recommendation to use soap to help the new RMS upper half slide in place. here's a full write up for you: http://www.go.jeep-xj.info/HowtoRearMain.htm
What does "MMO" mean?
Marvel Mystery Oil
The 2 filters that were the most impressive were Mobil 1 and Purolator..
QUOTED: http://www.carbibles.com/engineoil_bible.html
YOU FOUND IT! thats the website I meant to pull my oil info off of for the link but I couldn't remember/find it.
do I need to seperate the transmission from the motor to install the rear main? And you said to attach the gasket to the block.. not the pan.. but the oil pan gasket is all one piece so.. I think I need a write up on this.. sure there is one on here somewhere.. I'll check but post it if you know where a good one is..
From what I've read, and seen you can do a RMS with the engine and transmission still mated together...apparently its actually quite a simple and easy job to do, I've heard a recommendation to use soap to help the new RMS upper half slide in place. here's a full write up for you: http://www.go.jeep-xj.info/HowtoRearMain.htm
What does "MMO" mean?
Marvel Mystery Oil
The 2 filters that were the most impressive were Mobil 1 and Purolator..
QUOTED: http://www.carbibles.com/engineoil_bible.html
YOU FOUND IT! thats the website I meant to pull my oil info off of for the link but I couldn't remember/find it.
and yes, purolator/mobile 1 are hands down the better filters. There's concerns about the PureOne filters having the folds of the filter media too close together and thus actually restricting flow capacity, personally I am running an upsized(see almost 2x the size of a stock filter, you do have to pour an extra 1/2-1 quart of oil in to account for the extra filter capacity) pureone on my current change and next change will be running an upsized mobile one...and will continue to run a mobile 1 filter on all my cars until something better comes out. As such I will also run a high quality full synthetic oil in all of my vehicles....the proof is enough for me and I've had one engine blow up on me due to what I suspect was a lack in lubrication. Don't want to have to deal with that one again...EVER.
Last edited by ZachsXJ; 01-26-2010 at 01:57 AM.
01-26-2010 | 02:17 AM
#26
Thread Starter
Seasoned Member
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 321
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Year: 1990 Renix
Model: Cherokee
Engine: 4.0L
I gave some answers in red, inside your quote.
and yes, purolator/mobile 1 are hands down the better filters. There's concerns about the PureOne filters having the folds of the filter media too close together and thus actually restricting flow capacity, personally I am running an upsized(see almost 2x the size of a stock filter, you do have to pour an extra 1/2-1 quart of oil in to account for the extra filter capacity) pureone on my current change and next change will be running an upsized mobile one...and will continue to run a mobile 1 filter on all my cars until something better comes out. As such I will also run a high quality full synthetic oil in all of my vehicles....the proof is enough for me and I've had one engine blow up on me due to what I suspect was a lack in lubrication. Don't want to have to deal with that one again...EVER.
and yes, purolator/mobile 1 are hands down the better filters. There's concerns about the PureOne filters having the folds of the filter media too close together and thus actually restricting flow capacity, personally I am running an upsized(see almost 2x the size of a stock filter, you do have to pour an extra 1/2-1 quart of oil in to account for the extra filter capacity) pureone on my current change and next change will be running an upsized mobile one...and will continue to run a mobile 1 filter on all my cars until something better comes out. As such I will also run a high quality full synthetic oil in all of my vehicles....the proof is enough for me and I've had one engine blow up on me due to what I suspect was a lack in lubrication. Don't want to have to deal with that one again...EVER.
You have peeked my interest about the "upsized" filter.. I didnt know you could do that..And thanks for the link on the rear main seal install.. I will read it while waiting to hear back..
Almost forgot Marvel Mystery Oil is AWESOME!! I have used is for years.. surprised I didnt pick up on that.
I pour it into a spray bottle and soak down bolts etc as I live in a snowy area (lots of salt). It always does the truck.. sometimes MMO soak, then PB Blaster soak.. then MMO.. then PB.. almost better than a torch (heat wrench)!
Last edited by trapper; 01-26-2010 at 02:21 AM.
01-26-2010 | 02:31 AM
#27
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FOR EVERYONE ELSE, THIS INFO IS FOR TRAPPER ONLY, if you read this and **** up your XJ without checking with me first, its your own fault.
The filter is a big step up from stock...assuming that you're running the stocker 91 engine that has the vertical filter mount and the 3/4x16 threaded filter(if you have a different set-up PM me and I'll get you sorted out) then I'd recommend either using a Purolator PureONE PL30001 filter or a Mobile1 M1-301.
Stock XJs come with SAE204 style filters...the upsized ones are SAE301 style filters. they are a bolt on upgrade over stock, using the same exact threads and same o-ring diameter, you will need to fill in a little more oil to account for the larger filter but other than that you should be all set. If you go into a parts store and buy oil for a 4.0 XJ and get that filter to go with the oil...they will try to tell you the filter won't work, ignore them, I can go take pictures of the PL30001 on my XJ tomorrow if nay sayers need proof.
Last edited by ZachsXJ; 01-26-2010 at 02:33 AM.
01-26-2010 | 03:10 AM
#28
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 321
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Year: 1990 Renix
Model: Cherokee
Engine: 4.0L
That is the funniest and coolest SH*% I have seen in a while.. gave me a chuckle on a public forum.. you know that ppl will be copy/pasting your note for years to come.. right?! Instant fame!! And I got an honorable mention.. I love it!! LOL
So thanks.. I do have the vertical mount oil filter and its a dinky little thing.. that's why I cared so much about the quality of the filter chosen. I even think I have the larger purolator on hand..
Questions:
Is mobile 1 that much better or just that much more marketing??
Does one have more or larger holes around the top than the other?
I guess either is alright as it is made for more volume. I will remember to add 1/2 qt. of oil when I when I fill.
MORE Questions:
Did you mention about how you felt about ATF to flush a block?
That carbible website said that "getting all deposits out is bad" which I would agree with 98%.
I say leave the current filter on put on old pan gasket and some bolts.. fill with 80% ATF and 20% oil (syn or reg.. whatever is on hand.. dont really need syn).. then leave at idle for 20 or 30 min.. ... ... drain.. pull pan and reclean b/c drain plug is on side.. not bottom of pan (retains crap).. then reinstall with new big filter gasket syn lucas and mobile 1.
LAST Question:
Should I replace the oil pump?
The write up said it would "fall right out" with a rubber hammer (?!)
The sludge was not right up aginst it and it want caked.. just kind of thick on there. The screen is clean now and it didnt take much cleaning to get there.
Your thoughts on that?
Thanks for the insights!! Your great!
Tom
So thanks.. I do have the vertical mount oil filter and its a dinky little thing.. that's why I cared so much about the quality of the filter chosen. I even think I have the larger purolator on hand..
Questions:
Is mobile 1 that much better or just that much more marketing??
Does one have more or larger holes around the top than the other?
I guess either is alright as it is made for more volume. I will remember to add 1/2 qt. of oil when I when I fill.
MORE Questions:
Did you mention about how you felt about ATF to flush a block?
That carbible website said that "getting all deposits out is bad" which I would agree with 98%.
I say leave the current filter on put on old pan gasket and some bolts.. fill with 80% ATF and 20% oil (syn or reg.. whatever is on hand.. dont really need syn).. then leave at idle for 20 or 30 min.. ... ... drain.. pull pan and reclean b/c drain plug is on side.. not bottom of pan (retains crap).. then reinstall with new big filter gasket syn lucas and mobile 1.
LAST Question:
Should I replace the oil pump?
The write up said it would "fall right out" with a rubber hammer (?!)
The sludge was not right up aginst it and it want caked.. just kind of thick on there. The screen is clean now and it didnt take much cleaning to get there. Your thoughts on that?
Thanks for the insights!! Your great!
Tom
01-26-2010 | 03:30 AM
#29
CF Veteran
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 4,145
Likes: 0
That is the funniest and coolest SH*% I have seen in a while.. gave me a chuckle on a public forum.. you know that ppl will be copy/pasting your note for years to come.. right?! Instant fame!! And I got an honorable mention.. I love it!! LOL
So thanks.. I do have the vertical mount oil filter and its a dinky little thing.. that's why I cared so much about the quality of the filter chosen. I even think I have the larger purolator on hand..
Questions:
Is mobile 1 that much better or just that much more marketing??
Does one have more or larger holes around the top than the other?
I would say mobile one is at least on par with the PureONE filters, I'd even lean to say that they are better due to more spacing between the folds of the filter media(thus an ability to flow more oil), both are among the top 3 filters on the market so you'll be ok with either one
I guess either is alright as it is made for more volume. I will remember to add 1/2 qt. of oil when I when I fill.
MORE Questions:
Did you mention about how you felt about ATF to flush a block?
I wouldn't run more than 60%ATF to flush the block, but I agree that it is a good way to clean out lots and lots of gunk in an engine.
That carbible website said that "getting all deposits out is bad" which I would agree with 98%.
I say leave the current filter on put on old pan gasket and some bolts.. fill with 80% ATF and 20% oil (syn or reg.. whatever is on hand.. dont really need syn).. then leave at idle for 20 or 30 min.. ... ... drain.. pull pan and reclean b/c drain plug is on side.. not bottom of pan (retains crap).. then reinstall with new big filter gasket syn lucas and mobile 1.
Sounds good to me, I'd drop the ratio to 60/40 ATF/OIL though
LAST Question:
Should I replace the oil pump?
The write up said it would "fall right out" with a rubber hammer (?!) The sludge was not right up aginst it and it want caked.. just kind of thick on there. The screen is clean now and it didnt take much cleaning to get there.
Your thoughts on that?
Since you're going to all this trouble...I'd absolutely replace the oil pump, its cheap insurance to prevent needing a whole new engine.
I think the write-up was talking about the bearing cap for the RMS...you tap it with a rubber mallet after taking the bolts off and it should just "fall right out"
The one other thing I'd do is take a cloth shop rag(or rags) and clean as much sludge out with those as you can get to, if the valve cover is off, clean under there and down in the oil galleries as much as possible. pretty much without taking the whole engine apart get as much sludge off as you possibly can, do that before the ATF flush so that anything you loosen up during that will get carried away and caught in the oil pan/screen/filter
Thanks for the insights!! Your great!
Tom
So thanks.. I do have the vertical mount oil filter and its a dinky little thing.. that's why I cared so much about the quality of the filter chosen. I even think I have the larger purolator on hand..
Questions:
Is mobile 1 that much better or just that much more marketing??
Does one have more or larger holes around the top than the other?
I would say mobile one is at least on par with the PureONE filters, I'd even lean to say that they are better due to more spacing between the folds of the filter media(thus an ability to flow more oil), both are among the top 3 filters on the market so you'll be ok with either one
I guess either is alright as it is made for more volume. I will remember to add 1/2 qt. of oil when I when I fill.
MORE Questions:
Did you mention about how you felt about ATF to flush a block?
I wouldn't run more than 60%ATF to flush the block, but I agree that it is a good way to clean out lots and lots of gunk in an engine.
That carbible website said that "getting all deposits out is bad" which I would agree with 98%.
I say leave the current filter on put on old pan gasket and some bolts.. fill with 80% ATF and 20% oil (syn or reg.. whatever is on hand.. dont really need syn).. then leave at idle for 20 or 30 min.. ... ... drain.. pull pan and reclean b/c drain plug is on side.. not bottom of pan (retains crap).. then reinstall with new big filter gasket syn lucas and mobile 1.
Sounds good to me, I'd drop the ratio to 60/40 ATF/OIL though
LAST Question:
Should I replace the oil pump?
The write up said it would "fall right out" with a rubber hammer (?!)
The sludge was not right up aginst it and it want caked.. just kind of thick on there. The screen is clean now and it didnt take much cleaning to get there. Your thoughts on that?
Since you're going to all this trouble...I'd absolutely replace the oil pump, its cheap insurance to prevent needing a whole new engine.
I think the write-up was talking about the bearing cap for the RMS...you tap it with a rubber mallet after taking the bolts off and it should just "fall right out"
The one other thing I'd do is take a cloth shop rag(or rags) and clean as much sludge out with those as you can get to, if the valve cover is off, clean under there and down in the oil galleries as much as possible. pretty much without taking the whole engine apart get as much sludge off as you possibly can, do that before the ATF flush so that anything you loosen up during that will get carried away and caught in the oil pan/screen/filter
Thanks for the insights!! Your great!
Tom
