Oil Recommendations
#31
Banned
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 2,379
Likes: 17
From: Florida
Year: 2000
Model: Cherokee(XJ)
Engine: Golen 4.6L
The only fact I need is that the manufacturer recommends passenger car oil. The diesel advocates are challenging that, so the burden of proof is on them to provide convincing evidence diesel oil is a better choice. I don't have to prove anything. All I have to do is point out that they haven't proven their most basic assumption, and we default back to the status quo of passenger car oil.
#32
CF Veteran
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,394
Likes: 8
From: SEMO
Year: 2000
Model: Cherokee (XJ)
Engine: 4.0 L6
Sorry, I miss-worded that. When I said "you" I didn't mean you directly. I should have said, "that one (or "anyone") can make all of the guesses"... I'm in agreement with you, but I'm also not convinced at all that one is any better or worse than the other. I usually use the recommended 10w-30 PCMO, BTW. I won't hesitate to question the recommendation of an auto manufacturer, but I won't do it without reason.
Last edited by Tbone289; 12-15-2017 at 06:03 PM.
#33
CF Veteran
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 3,624
Likes: 463
From: Southern OH
Year: 1997
Model: Cherokee(XJ)
Engine: 4.0
The only reason they dont recommend diesel oil is for emissions reasons. Modern diesel engine oil can be used in a daily driver without any problems, what do you think people who daily drive diesel trucks use? They spec 10w30 in the later models just because of the lower viscosity may improve fuel mileage, but the mileage gains of 10w30 over 15w40 are not noticeable. Diesel oil offers better protection for flat tappet cam engines like the 4.0 I also use it in older gas engines like the Chevy 305, 350, 454, ford 300, 302, 351, 460 and dodge 318, 360 and 440s for the better protection because back when these engines where designed the oil had more zinc in it and lubricated better than modern gas oils do. The diesel engine oil has better additives and is designed to take more abuse and it has more detergents in it so it keeps your engine cleaner.
Last edited by 00t444e; 12-16-2017 at 12:23 AM.
#34
No, I don't lick fish.
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 11,167
Likes: 21
From: Northern Kentucky
Year: 1999
Model: Cherokee (XJ)
Engine: 4.0
It may not be bad advice. There are two places where I question it:
First, the phosphorus in ZDDP eats catalytic converters. You need enough for your motor, but too much will ruin your cats too early. Cats are not exactly cheap. So why wear it out faster if you don't really need the extra ZDDP?
Second, condensation forms on the interior surfaces of engines when they cool. That moisture causes increased wear during warm up, until the engine is hot enough to boil away the moisture. Detergent packages in oil are formulated in part to bond that moisture to protect engine surfaces until the motor is up to operating temp.
The detergent packages in passenger car oil are balanced for multiple heating and cooling cycles per day, assuming that most people will drive their vehicles short distances, let them cool off, restart them, let them cool off again, etc. The detergent packages in diesel oil are designed for long distance driving of 500+ miles per day with many fewer heating and cooling cycles. Motor oil also breaks down differently under long haul conditions, so the volatiles that are created are different as well.
So if you're putting diesel oil in your Jeep and driving it as a daily driver to work, to lunch, to the store, back home, to the mall on weekends, to a restaurant, all around town, etc., you have a detergent package that is not optimized for the type of driving you're doing. Is it detrimental? I don't know, but logic would seem to dictate that it's not the ideal choice for managing condensation in your motor.
So maybe it is bad advice. Or maybe these concerns don't matter. Nobody really knows, since nobody has done the scientific work to prove it one way or the other.
The way I look at it, the manufacturer does not recommend diesel oil for this engine. They're not perfect, and part of that may be the result of regulatory requirements, but they have done more product development and testing than anybody trying to sell you on using diesel oil. Until someone can show me actual scientific evidence that the manufacturer is wrong, I'm sticking with their advice.
First, the phosphorus in ZDDP eats catalytic converters. You need enough for your motor, but too much will ruin your cats too early. Cats are not exactly cheap. So why wear it out faster if you don't really need the extra ZDDP?
Second, condensation forms on the interior surfaces of engines when they cool. That moisture causes increased wear during warm up, until the engine is hot enough to boil away the moisture. Detergent packages in oil are formulated in part to bond that moisture to protect engine surfaces until the motor is up to operating temp.
The detergent packages in passenger car oil are balanced for multiple heating and cooling cycles per day, assuming that most people will drive their vehicles short distances, let them cool off, restart them, let them cool off again, etc. The detergent packages in diesel oil are designed for long distance driving of 500+ miles per day with many fewer heating and cooling cycles. Motor oil also breaks down differently under long haul conditions, so the volatiles that are created are different as well.
So if you're putting diesel oil in your Jeep and driving it as a daily driver to work, to lunch, to the store, back home, to the mall on weekends, to a restaurant, all around town, etc., you have a detergent package that is not optimized for the type of driving you're doing. Is it detrimental? I don't know, but logic would seem to dictate that it's not the ideal choice for managing condensation in your motor.
So maybe it is bad advice. Or maybe these concerns don't matter. Nobody really knows, since nobody has done the scientific work to prove it one way or the other.
The way I look at it, the manufacturer does not recommend diesel oil for this engine. They're not perfect, and part of that may be the result of regulatory requirements, but they have done more product development and testing than anybody trying to sell you on using diesel oil. Until someone can show me actual scientific evidence that the manufacturer is wrong, I'm sticking with their advice.
Therefor, I don't see how your premise that "The detergent packages in diesel oil are designed for long distance driving of 500+ miles per day with many fewer heating and cooling cycles" holds weight.
Not trying to bust on you, just throwing it out there.
#35
Banned
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 2,379
Likes: 17
From: Florida
Year: 2000
Model: Cherokee(XJ)
Engine: Golen 4.6L
If you can't support this basic assumption, every other argument in favor of diesel oil falls apart.
You might as well be telling me "Rotella has electrolytes. It's what motors crave."
#36
CF Veteran
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 3,624
Likes: 463
From: Southern OH
Year: 1997
Model: Cherokee(XJ)
Engine: 4.0
No one has ever provided any scientific evidence to support this assumption. Show me a study where the sample of 4.0L motors running diesel oil lasted longer than a control group running passenger car oil.
If you can't support this basic assumption, every other argument in favor of diesel oil falls apart.
Oil from thirty years ago did not lubricate better than modern oil.
Motor oils for gasoline engines also have additive packages with detergents. The standards require them.
You might as well be telling me "Rotella has electrolytes. It's what motors crave."
If you can't support this basic assumption, every other argument in favor of diesel oil falls apart.
Oil from thirty years ago did not lubricate better than modern oil.
Motor oils for gasoline engines also have additive packages with detergents. The standards require them.
You might as well be telling me "Rotella has electrolytes. It's what motors crave."
#39
#40
Tell you what... You want to test an oil? Throw it in an air cooled Baja Bug and bring it to the desert in the summer and run it. When it starts to idle down to 0 psi it is not good enough oil. This is how I test oils. lol
#41
Banned
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 2,379
Likes: 17
From: Florida
Year: 2000
Model: Cherokee(XJ)
Engine: Golen 4.6L
Soon after the change in ZDDP level, there does appear to have been a rash of cam failures among people building engines with more aggressive cams and stiffer springs. All this came from the performance engine community, and it does seem to be true that a performance engine needs the extra zinc and phosphorus. I personally run Driven hot rod oil in my stroker for this very reason. According to Golen Engine Services, there has been a demonstrated need for the extra zinc, so they require high zinc oil for their warranty.
But as far as I can tell, nobody has ever scientifically demonstrated a need for extra ZDDP in the stock 4.0L. Thus the entire Rotella fad seems to be based on "facts" not in evidence. I searched the archives and couldn't even find any anecdotal evidence of widespread cam failures in our motors. The few cam failures I did find always had to do with bearings or botched break-in. Somebody may be able to dig more than I did and find one, but it's pretty clear if it is happening, it's a pretty rare thing that isn't happening nearly as often as you would expect if the passenger car oil used in most 4.0L motors is a problem.
But I did find this GM technical bulletin written by a GM engineer, posted on Bob is the Oil Guy:
The Starburst Oil Myth -- The latest myth promoted by the antique and collector car press says that new Starburst/ API SM engine oils (called Starburst for the shape of the symbol on the container) are bad for older engines because the amount of anti-wear additive in them has been reduced. The anti-wear additive being discussed is zinc dithiophosphate (ZDP).
Before debunking this myth, we need to look at the history of ZDP usage. For over 60 years, ZDP has been used as an additive in engine oils to provide wear protection and oxidation stability.
ZDP was first added to engine oil to control copper/lead bearing corrosion. Oils with a phosphorus level in the 0.03% range passed a corrosion test introduced in 1942.
In the mid-1950s, when the use of high-lift camshafts increased the potential for scuffing and wear, the phosphorus level contributed by ZDP was increased to the 0.08% range.
In addition, the industry developed a battery of oil tests (called sequences), two of which were valve-train scuffing and wear tests.
A higher level of ZDP was good for flat-tappet valve-train scuffing and wear, but it turned out that more was not better. Although break-in scuffing was reduced by using more phosphorus, longer-term wear increased when phosphorus rose above 0.14%. And, at about 0.20% phosphorus, the ZDP started attacking the grain boundaries in the iron, resulting in camshaft spalling.
By the 1970s, increased antioxidancy was needed to protect the oil in high-load engines, which otherwise could thicken to a point where the engine could no longer pump it. Because ZDP was an inexpensive and effective antioxidant, it was used to place the phosphorus level in the 0.10% range.
However, phosphorus is a poison for exhaust catalysts. So, ZDP levels have been reduced over the last 10-15 years. It's now down to a maximum of 0.08% for Starburst oils. This was supported by the introduction of modern ashless antioxidants that contain no phosphorus.
Enough history. Let's get back to the myth that Starburst oils are no good for older engines. The argument put forth is that while these oils work perfectly well in modern, gasoline engines equipped with roller camshafts, they will cause catastrophic wear in older engines equipped with flat-tappet camshafts.
The facts say otherwise.
Backward compatability was of great importance when the Starburst oil standards were developed by a group of experts from the OEMs, oil companies, and oil additive companies. In addition, multiple oil and additive companies ran no-harm tests on older engines with the new oils; and no problems were uncovered.
The new Starburst specification contains two valve-train wear tests. All Starburst oil formulations must pass these two tests.
- Sequence IVA tests for camshaft scuffing and wear using a single overhead camshaft engine with slider finger (not roller) followers.
- Sequence IIIG evaluates cam and lifter wear using a V6 engine with a flat-tappet system, similar to those used in the 1980s.
Those who hold onto the myth are ignoring the fact that the new Starburst oils contain about the same percentage of ZDP as the oils that solved the camshaft scuffing and wear issues back in the 1950s. (True, they do contain less ZDP than the oils that solved the oil thickening issues in the 1960s, but that's because they now contain high levels of ashless antioxidants not commercially available in the 1960s.)
Despite the pains taken in developing special flat-tappet camshaft wear tests that these new oils must pass and the fact that the ZDP level of these new oils is comparable to the level found necessary to protect flat-tappet camshafts in the past, there will still be those who want to believe the myth that new oils will wear out older engines.
Like other myths before it, history teaches us that it will probably take 60 or 70 years for this one to die also.
Special thanks to GM's Techlink
- Thanks to Bob Olree – GM Powertrain Fuels and Lubricants Group
Before debunking this myth, we need to look at the history of ZDP usage. For over 60 years, ZDP has been used as an additive in engine oils to provide wear protection and oxidation stability.
ZDP was first added to engine oil to control copper/lead bearing corrosion. Oils with a phosphorus level in the 0.03% range passed a corrosion test introduced in 1942.
In the mid-1950s, when the use of high-lift camshafts increased the potential for scuffing and wear, the phosphorus level contributed by ZDP was increased to the 0.08% range.
In addition, the industry developed a battery of oil tests (called sequences), two of which were valve-train scuffing and wear tests.
A higher level of ZDP was good for flat-tappet valve-train scuffing and wear, but it turned out that more was not better. Although break-in scuffing was reduced by using more phosphorus, longer-term wear increased when phosphorus rose above 0.14%. And, at about 0.20% phosphorus, the ZDP started attacking the grain boundaries in the iron, resulting in camshaft spalling.
By the 1970s, increased antioxidancy was needed to protect the oil in high-load engines, which otherwise could thicken to a point where the engine could no longer pump it. Because ZDP was an inexpensive and effective antioxidant, it was used to place the phosphorus level in the 0.10% range.
However, phosphorus is a poison for exhaust catalysts. So, ZDP levels have been reduced over the last 10-15 years. It's now down to a maximum of 0.08% for Starburst oils. This was supported by the introduction of modern ashless antioxidants that contain no phosphorus.
Enough history. Let's get back to the myth that Starburst oils are no good for older engines. The argument put forth is that while these oils work perfectly well in modern, gasoline engines equipped with roller camshafts, they will cause catastrophic wear in older engines equipped with flat-tappet camshafts.
The facts say otherwise.
Backward compatability was of great importance when the Starburst oil standards were developed by a group of experts from the OEMs, oil companies, and oil additive companies. In addition, multiple oil and additive companies ran no-harm tests on older engines with the new oils; and no problems were uncovered.
The new Starburst specification contains two valve-train wear tests. All Starburst oil formulations must pass these two tests.
- Sequence IVA tests for camshaft scuffing and wear using a single overhead camshaft engine with slider finger (not roller) followers.
- Sequence IIIG evaluates cam and lifter wear using a V6 engine with a flat-tappet system, similar to those used in the 1980s.
Those who hold onto the myth are ignoring the fact that the new Starburst oils contain about the same percentage of ZDP as the oils that solved the camshaft scuffing and wear issues back in the 1950s. (True, they do contain less ZDP than the oils that solved the oil thickening issues in the 1960s, but that's because they now contain high levels of ashless antioxidants not commercially available in the 1960s.)
Despite the pains taken in developing special flat-tappet camshaft wear tests that these new oils must pass and the fact that the ZDP level of these new oils is comparable to the level found necessary to protect flat-tappet camshafts in the past, there will still be those who want to believe the myth that new oils will wear out older engines.
Like other myths before it, history teaches us that it will probably take 60 or 70 years for this one to die also.
Special thanks to GM's Techlink
- Thanks to Bob Olree – GM Powertrain Fuels and Lubricants Group
#42
CF Veteran
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 3,624
Likes: 463
From: Southern OH
Year: 1997
Model: Cherokee(XJ)
Engine: 4.0
You can run whatever oil you want its your vehicle. I have already stated my reasons for running diesel oil, I simply wan't the best protection for my engine, also my engine is quieter and holds better oil pressure than it did when I was running regular 10w30.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
THEBIGWHITEONE
Stock XJ Cherokee Tech. All XJ Non-modified/stock questions go here
8
06-24-2019 09:05 AM
rgs80074
Stock Grand Cherokee Tech. All ZJ/WJ/WK Non-modified/stock questions go here!
1
06-22-2016 08:51 AM
scorer75
Stock XJ Cherokee Tech. All XJ Non-modified/stock questions go here
7
03-07-2012 01:01 PM
MadMonk
Stock Grand Cherokee Tech. All ZJ/WJ/WK Non-modified/stock questions go here!
25
07-31-2008 04:35 PM
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)