renix heater hose help
11-01-2013, 01:15 PM
#31
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Year: 1987
Model: Cherokee
Engine: 4.0
[QUOTE=DFlintstone;2661495]
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying to replace your child's favorite fruit juice with it or anything. It's just what the companies do. They market it as a "safer" alternative to EG. Hence the "quotes" on the earlier post.
It works fine, and it happens to be what's in my XJ currently. Not that I preach that or anything, my other 5 cars have EG in them. I don't really remember why I choose it... I guess I don't want any animals dying from my negligence.
Propylene Glycol is commonly sold as "safe" antifreeze like Sierra brand/QUOTE]
NO! I dont think Propylene Glycol is safe. You might consider deleting that, Pet's like it, and it often kills them.
OK....googleing, it's just less poisonous. I see what you mean Suppera, my mistake to confuse it with Etheline glycol, just don't want anyone thinking any of it is safe.
NO! I dont think Propylene Glycol is safe. You might consider deleting that, Pet's like it, and it often kills them.
OK....googleing, it's just less poisonous. I see what you mean Suppera, my mistake to confuse it with Etheline glycol, just don't want anyone thinking any of it is safe.
It works fine, and it happens to be what's in my XJ currently. Not that I preach that or anything, my other 5 cars have EG in them. I don't really remember why I choose it... I guess I don't want any animals dying from my negligence.
11-01-2013, 02:41 PM
#32
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Flow in that hose runs toward the firewall. By shutting off the hose aft of the T fitting, you force reverse flow (I may modify the design somewhat to put an "exhaust port" on the other side of the valve, but I was less concerned with flushing the heater core than with flushing the system - I don't use heat much.)
Also from the picture, the shutoff line is the one that connects to the bottom of the surge tank: I thought it was supposed to draw from that location, and the inlet for the surge tank is the upper one on the side.
Thanks.
11-01-2013, 11:00 PM
#33
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Year: 1988
Model: Cherokee
Engine: AMC242
Just looking at the picture, I thought that the line with the shutoff valve is the one that goes into the water pump (along with the lower radiator hose). Isn't the flow in that direction from both of those two inlets and into the block?
Also from the picture, the shutoff line is the one that connects to the bottom of the surge tank: I thought it was supposed to draw from that location, and the inlet for the surge tank is the upper one on the side.
Thanks.
Also from the picture, the shutoff line is the one that connects to the bottom of the surge tank: I thought it was supposed to draw from that location, and the inlet for the surge tank is the upper one on the side.
Thanks.
I was in a hurry at the time, and I haven't looked at the mod in a bit (and the vehicle is down pending a refit for unrelated reasons,) so I may have got some details wrong - I was answering from memory, and not looking at the pictures. I freely admit that I could have screwed up on the answers, since I wasn't referring to anything (therefore, feel free to point it up if I screw up! "If one man makes a mistake, that is an opportunity for TWO men to learn something new." -Me, ca. 1987.)
11-02-2013, 01:47 PM
#35
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That's exactly my thought. I'm trying to double-check all this because today I'm ripping out the set of leaking hoses to replace it all.
05-02-2014, 06:08 AM
#36
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Year: 1989
Model: Cherokee
Engine: 4.0L
Flow in that hose runs toward the firewall. By shutting off the hose aft of the T fitting, you force reverse flow (I may modify the design somewhat to put an "exhaust port" on the other side of the valve, but I was less concerned with flushing the heater core than with flushing the system - I don't use heat much.)
Why flow it backwards? Because deposits form like fish scales. Ever scale a fish? If you try to flake 'em off from the head back, you won't get anywhere. Work from the tail forward, and you can pop 'em right off. Mineral scale works the same way - run the pressure in a reverse direction, it gets under the scale and dislodges it.
As far as pressure - yes, the system operates at <16psig, with a centrifugal pump (not positive displacement) to generate a flow pattern. Easy enough.
However, when I've got the hose hooked up (residential mains pressure typically 50-75psig,) the system is not closed. The pressure cap is removed, and the pressure is exhausted through the open fill port. Therefore, pressure doesn't build within the system - instead, it reverts to "flow force," and that also helps to dislodge deposits. You can also run the engine with the pressure cap removed, turn the hose down to a trickle and leave the hose running. Unnecessary, but will work. An "open" system (to the atmosphere, not "open" or "closed" cooling) usually doesn't generate enough pressure to be a problem, unless there's a significant bottleneck to fluid flow.
However, if you're using residential mains to flush the system, you want to drain as much of the water as possible to reduce the potential for mineral deposits to re-form.
TIPS:
- Running straight water is inadvisable. If you want to run straight water, pour in a bottle of Water Wetter (RedLine products,) as it will help immensely
- Even if you're running the appropriate cut of coolant (which can run from 30/70 to 70/30!) a bottle of Water Wetter isn't going to go amiss - I use it routinely.
- If you're worried about mineral deposits from tap water (this is going to sound funny...) use Calgon laundry additive! One tablespoon per gallon of coolant, as I recall. (You're trying to purge as much of the tap water as possible, so you shouldn't need so much. (This works neatly - I have done this with common ethylene glycol coolant. I have no idea if it will work with other coolant bases. Also, it is not incompatible with Water Wetter, as far as I know - I've mixed the two as well.)
- If you get it in your head to change coolants (from the common ethylene glycol "green" coolant to, say, the Dex-Cool - which is, I believe, based on propylene glycol,) then flush the system THOROUGHLY and replace ALL rubber hoses (the two bases are incompatible, just as the lubricating oils between R-12 and HCF-134a.) The conversion should survive not changing the gaskets - but if you want to be thorough, it's not a bad idea.
As far as the Cu plumbing itself? It's something I stomped up in a hurry, using parts I had on hand. Took me about a half-hour, I think. (And, I just had to go pick up a roll of solder and a can of MAPP - which was so much less expensive than those damned moulded hoses I had to replace!)
Why flow it backwards? Because deposits form like fish scales. Ever scale a fish? If you try to flake 'em off from the head back, you won't get anywhere. Work from the tail forward, and you can pop 'em right off. Mineral scale works the same way - run the pressure in a reverse direction, it gets under the scale and dislodges it.
As far as pressure - yes, the system operates at <16psig, with a centrifugal pump (not positive displacement) to generate a flow pattern. Easy enough.
However, when I've got the hose hooked up (residential mains pressure typically 50-75psig,) the system is not closed. The pressure cap is removed, and the pressure is exhausted through the open fill port. Therefore, pressure doesn't build within the system - instead, it reverts to "flow force," and that also helps to dislodge deposits. You can also run the engine with the pressure cap removed, turn the hose down to a trickle and leave the hose running. Unnecessary, but will work. An "open" system (to the atmosphere, not "open" or "closed" cooling) usually doesn't generate enough pressure to be a problem, unless there's a significant bottleneck to fluid flow.
However, if you're using residential mains to flush the system, you want to drain as much of the water as possible to reduce the potential for mineral deposits to re-form.
TIPS:
- Running straight water is inadvisable. If you want to run straight water, pour in a bottle of Water Wetter (RedLine products,) as it will help immensely
- Even if you're running the appropriate cut of coolant (which can run from 30/70 to 70/30!) a bottle of Water Wetter isn't going to go amiss - I use it routinely.
- If you're worried about mineral deposits from tap water (this is going to sound funny...) use Calgon laundry additive! One tablespoon per gallon of coolant, as I recall. (You're trying to purge as much of the tap water as possible, so you shouldn't need so much. (This works neatly - I have done this with common ethylene glycol coolant. I have no idea if it will work with other coolant bases. Also, it is not incompatible with Water Wetter, as far as I know - I've mixed the two as well.)
- If you get it in your head to change coolants (from the common ethylene glycol "green" coolant to, say, the Dex-Cool - which is, I believe, based on propylene glycol,) then flush the system THOROUGHLY and replace ALL rubber hoses (the two bases are incompatible, just as the lubricating oils between R-12 and HCF-134a.) The conversion should survive not changing the gaskets - but if you want to be thorough, it's not a bad idea.
As far as the Cu plumbing itself? It's something I stomped up in a hurry, using parts I had on hand. Took me about a half-hour, I think. (And, I just had to go pick up a roll of solder and a can of MAPP - which was so much less expensive than those damned moulded hoses I had to replace!)
The idea is to have the water go through the system in reverse - for reasons mentioned.
I was in a hurry at the time, and I haven't looked at the mod in a bit (and the vehicle is down pending a refit for unrelated reasons,) so I may have got some details wrong - I was answering from memory, and not looking at the pictures. I freely admit that I could have screwed up on the answers, since I wasn't referring to anything (therefore, feel free to point it up if I screw up! "If one man makes a mistake, that is an opportunity for TWO men to learn something new." -Me, ca. 1987.)
I was in a hurry at the time, and I haven't looked at the mod in a bit (and the vehicle is down pending a refit for unrelated reasons,) so I may have got some details wrong - I was answering from memory, and not looking at the pictures. I freely admit that I could have screwed up on the answers, since I wasn't referring to anything (therefore, feel free to point it up if I screw up! "If one man makes a mistake, that is an opportunity for TWO men to learn something new." -Me, ca. 1987.)
Very interesting...
I see this is an old post, but I been looking for info on this Pipe upgrade (or something similar) for some time now.
Less than 16 pounds? surprised, but that makes many more possible types of piping/hose, including flex pipe, braided hose, maybe even Gas piping...
What, exactly does the Calgon do for the system and water deposits, and how long do you leave it in, before flushing? Maybe distilled would be better.
As far as the Cu plumbing itself... I heard that when hooked to, or in a system with iron(steel) the dissimilar metals can cause electrolysis which can eat away and leave deposits.
Do/ did you need to use Zinc to control this? Would stainless, or steel pipe be better?
Thanks for the info - and I hope your reply
05-02-2014, 05:02 PM
#37
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Year: 1988
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Engine: AMC242
Very interesting...
I see this is an old post, but I been looking for info on this Pipe upgrade (or something similar) for some time now.
Less than 16 pounds? surprised, but that makes many more possible types of piping/hose, including flex pipe, braided hose, maybe even Gas piping...
What, exactly does the Calgon do for the system and water deposits, and how long do you leave it in, before flushing? Maybe distilled would be better.
As far as the Cu plumbing itself... I heard that when hooked to, or in a system with iron(steel) the dissimilar metals can cause electrolysis which can eat away and leave deposits.
Do/ did you need to use Zinc to control this? Would stainless, or steel pipe be better?
Thanks for the info - and I hope your reply
I see this is an old post, but I been looking for info on this Pipe upgrade (or something similar) for some time now.
Less than 16 pounds? surprised, but that makes many more possible types of piping/hose, including flex pipe, braided hose, maybe even Gas piping...
What, exactly does the Calgon do for the system and water deposits, and how long do you leave it in, before flushing? Maybe distilled would be better.
As far as the Cu plumbing itself... I heard that when hooked to, or in a system with iron(steel) the dissimilar metals can cause electrolysis which can eat away and leave deposits.
Do/ did you need to use Zinc to control this? Would stainless, or steel pipe be better?
Thanks for the info - and I hope your reply
I just used copper tubing because I like it, and copper has a higher heat transfer rating the iron. That makes it a sort of "extra radiator" - experimentally, I applied light insulation to it (in the form of split lengths of heater hose.) I noted the copper bearing bare gave a decrease in nominal operating temperature by ~5*F, as measured at the thermostat housing (which is the outlet for engine coolant, and is an easy "standard measuring point" to remember.) Besides, I had the stuff handy - which saved me running off to get it, and it's easier to fabricate custom plumbing from sweated-together copper than to use threaded pipe...
Calgon, as you probably know, is a laundry additive used to mitigate the effects of "hard" (mineral-laden) water. "Calgon" itself is likely derived from "calcium gone" - since calcium is the most common mineral present in hard water (but far from the only mineral.) I'd have to check, but I believe it is a combination chelating agent (to remove metal) and surfactant (q.v.) that helps prevent hard water stains in your clothing. I have found it useful as a "rinse stage" when I do flushes - but I don't typically leave it in (and if I said I did, the mistake is mine.) Use reverse osmosis-filtered or distilled water for your service fill, and add a bottle of Water Wetter (q.v.) as a surfactant for regular service.
Yes, you are correct about the cooling system forming a galvanic cell when heated, due to the dissimilar metals and the presence of free H+ and OH- ions in the water. Part of the additive package in engine coolant is meant to mitigate these effects - and a sacrificial zinc anode is an idea that won't go amiss. However, on RENIX, there's really not a place to easily add one. Besides, what's the radiator made from? Copper and iron are close enough in the galvanic series that this doesn't pose a problem (radiators are typically sheet copper - brass contains zinc, which may, sometimes, leach,) and you'll note that the "plug" in most thermostats is also typically copper. There is so little aluminum in the cooling system on our trucks (water pump housing, thermostat housing) because aluminum is farther away from iron - and therefore has a higher galvanic potential when forming a cell. (Side note - a good, quick way to check the condition of your coolant? With the engine at operating temperature - running or not - remove the radiator cap. BE CAREFUL! Insert the positive probe of a voltmeter directly into the coolant, touch the negative probe to bare metal that is a direct part of the cooling system - thermostat housing, bare radiator fill neck metal, whatever. Just so you don't have BOTH probes in the coolant. A reading of over 0.5VDC indicates that you should service the coolant soon, a reading of over 1.0VDC indicates that you should service the coolant immediately. A reading over 2.0VDC (I've seen it a few times) indicates that you are about to do a cooling system overhaul.
(Yes, the coolant serves as the electrolyte in a wet cell battery... Therefore, measuring the potential voltage of the cell serves as an effective quick indicator of system health - lower is better.)
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