Wheel lugs driving me nuts
12-25-2014, 10:55 AM
#31
CF Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Oroville, CA
Posts: 12,367
Likes: 0
Received 22 Likes
on
21 Posts
Year: 1995
Model: Grand Cherokee
Engine: 4.0 with all of the noise and clatter
Read my posts again, I haven't changed my mind or ever said it is recommended to lube the studs on a Jeep. Some, not all manufacturers recommend lubricant on the studs. None of them recommend anti-seize on the studs. Clamping force and lug nut torque are two different things. My source of information is from the National Tire and Wheel Institute.
12-25-2014, 10:56 AM
#32
Banned
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 53
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Year: 1998
Model: Cherokee
Engine: 4.0
12-25-2014, 10:56 AM
#33
Banned
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 53
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Year: 1998
Model: Cherokee
Engine: 4.0
12-25-2014, 12:14 PM
#34
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Hacienda Heights
Posts: 603
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Year: 1990
Model: Cherokee
Engine: 4.0
I've read the articles on the matter and have tested it myself, all conclude that anti-seize will decrease the friction and therefore increase the clamping force compared to dry, but generally not by much. The condition and type of fasteners and wheel will alter the amount of change. Porsche for one uses it (or at least did when I was researching) and even issued a TSB to make sure their dealerships used it, it's some german labeled stuff and may have special qualities, but I've read it's made by Permatex. Millions of people: racers, shops, and home mechanics use it. I've read only one story of a guy who lost a wheel after using it but he didn't use a torque wrench and it was his first time playing mechanic so I discount that occurrence. I have close to 30 years using it, especially on anything that'll go underwater and the Porsche I had because it had expensive aluminum lug nuts that I didn't want to damage. My dad used it before I did and some of my friends use it. I've been a mechanic for close to 30 years and have dealt with many lug issues: over-torqueing, rust, galling, impact damage, and a friend's trailer wheel that came off that wasn't re-torqued as recommended, none had even a trace anti-seize on them. I have encountered many vehicles and trailers that had anti-seize on them, but yet to encounter one with damage or issues.
Anyone curious enough to care to test this, it's easy. Tighten a wheel to spec with dry lugs and mark the nuts. Remove, apply lube of choice, re-torque, and check nut position. I tested on one of my boat trailers and used some of the lubricants I used on the boat. The 5 test lugs were installed with: anti-seize, 15-50 Mobil1, OMC triple guard grease, marine wheel bearing grease, and one dry as a base. In multiple tightenings the dry one was off less than the width of my mark and all the others went tighter.
Y'all do as you wish, I'll keep using it where I feel it's useful.
Anyone curious enough to care to test this, it's easy. Tighten a wheel to spec with dry lugs and mark the nuts. Remove, apply lube of choice, re-torque, and check nut position. I tested on one of my boat trailers and used some of the lubricants I used on the boat. The 5 test lugs were installed with: anti-seize, 15-50 Mobil1, OMC triple guard grease, marine wheel bearing grease, and one dry as a base. In multiple tightenings the dry one was off less than the width of my mark and all the others went tighter.
Y'all do as you wish, I'll keep using it where I feel it's useful.
12-25-2014, 12:21 PM
#35
Banned
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 53
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Year: 1998
Model: Cherokee
Engine: 4.0
I've read the articles on the matter and have tested it myself, all conclude that anti-seize will decrease the friction and therefore increase the clamping force compared to dry, but generally not by much. The condition and type of fasteners and wheel will alter the amount of change. Porsche for one uses it (or at least did when I was researching) and even issued a TSB to make sure their dealerships used it, it's some german labeled stuff and may have special qualities, but I've read it's made by Permatex. Millions of people: racers, shops, and home mechanics use it. I've read only one story of a guy who lost a wheel after using it but he didn't use a torque wrench and it was his first time playing mechanic so I discount that occurrence. I have close to 30 years using it, especially on anything that'll go underwater and the Porsche I had because it had expensive aluminum lug nuts that I didn't want to damage. My dad used it before I did and some of my friends use it. I've been a mechanic for close to 30 years and have dealt with many lug issues: over-torqueing, rust, galling, impact damage, and a friend's trailer wheel that came off that wasn't re-torqued as recommended, none had even a trace anti-seize on them. I have encountered many vehicles and trailers that had anti-seize on them, but yet to encounter one with damage or issues. Anyone curious enough to care to test this, it's easy. Tighten a wheel to spec with dry lugs and mark the nuts. Remove, apply lube of choice, re-torque, and check nut position. I tested on one of my boat trailers and used some of the lubricants I used on the boat. The 5 test lugs were installed with: anti-seize, 15-50 Mobil1, OMC triple guard grease, marine wheel bearing grease, and one dry as a base. In multiple tightenings the dry one was off less than the width of my mark and all the others went tighter. Y'all do as you wish, I'll keep using it where I feel it's useful.
12-25-2014, 01:49 PM
#36
Senior Member
It's really hard to be sure anymore. In '87 when the XJs were made, there was probably the thought or experiences that lubricant on the studs would result in overtightening. Decades later, fastener technology has changed, manufactured tolerances are closer than they used to be, better materials being used etc. So, to reiterate, I have never had to put lubricant on my lug studs on any vehicle. That being said, I do wire brush the studs to remove rust when I change my wheels over each year. Since I'm taking the lug nuts off at least twice a year (for tire changes) and maybe another time for brakes or other reasons, my studs and lug nuts might be in good shape since they've been exercised. If you don't take you wheels off for a long time, the exposed fastener may be in bad shape or get seized.
From what I've read from the posts and links (thanks to all posters), it seems that a few drops of 30 weight oil on the stud may be ok. I've read also that no lubricant or anti-seize is required and that torque settings have been set assuming clean, dry threads. If you don't have clean, dry threads, there may be issues.
Since the clamping occurs when the nut hits the wheel, I think we would all agree that there cannot be any lubricant between the lug nut and the wheel surface or this will give a false torque reading.
The debate can continue of course.
From what I've read from the posts and links (thanks to all posters), it seems that a few drops of 30 weight oil on the stud may be ok. I've read also that no lubricant or anti-seize is required and that torque settings have been set assuming clean, dry threads. If you don't have clean, dry threads, there may be issues.
Since the clamping occurs when the nut hits the wheel, I think we would all agree that there cannot be any lubricant between the lug nut and the wheel surface or this will give a false torque reading.
The debate can continue of course.
12-25-2014, 09:27 PM
#37
Herp Derp Jerp
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Parham, ON
Posts: 18,251
Likes: 0
Received 13 Likes
on
12 Posts
Year: 1999
Model: Cherokee
Engine: 4.0L OBD-II
Since this thread doesn't seem to want to die, anybody else reading this **** shaking their heads is invited to read some research regarding lubricants and fastener clamping force and torque required, by clicking this link:
https://www.cherokeeforum.com/f67/to...2/#post2281736
Draw your own conclusions based on this. I use Permatex Copper on my lug nuts and torque to original spec as indicated in Permatex's instructions. Even have aluminum rims. 30,000 KM that way and no issues.
You forgot Teflon tape. Never forget the Teflon tape! Are you trying to get killed???
https://www.cherokeeforum.com/f67/to...2/#post2281736
Draw your own conclusions based on this. I use Permatex Copper on my lug nuts and torque to original spec as indicated in Permatex's instructions. Even have aluminum rims. 30,000 KM that way and no issues.
You forgot Teflon tape. Never forget the Teflon tape! Are you trying to get killed???
12-25-2014, 09:40 PM
#38
CF Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Greenville, SC
Posts: 5,920
Likes: 0
Received 190 Likes
on
165 Posts
Year: 1999
Model: Cherokee(XJ)
Engine: 4.0
Since this thread doesn't seem to want to die, anybody else reading this **** shaking their heads is invited to read some research regarding lubricants and fastener clamping force and torque required, by clicking this link: https://www.cherokeeforum.com/f67/to...2/#post2281736 Draw your own conclusions based on this. I use Permatex Copper on my lug nuts and torque to original spec as indicated in Permatex's instructions. Even have aluminum rims. 30,000 KM that way and no issues. You forgot Teflon tape. Never forget the Teflon tape! Are you trying to get killed???
12-25-2014, 09:45 PM
#39
Herp Derp Jerp
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Parham, ON
Posts: 18,251
Likes: 0
Received 13 Likes
on
12 Posts
Year: 1999
Model: Cherokee
Engine: 4.0L OBD-II
Good call on the hill. Gravity does half the work for you!
12-26-2014, 10:22 AM
#42
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Hacienda Heights
Posts: 603
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Year: 1990
Model: Cherokee
Engine: 4.0
It's really hard to be sure anymore. In '87 when the XJs were made, there was probably the thought or experiences that lubricant on the studs would result in overtightening. Decades later, fastener technology has changed, manufactured tolerances are closer than they used to be, better materials being used etc. So, to reiterate, I have never had to put lubricant on my lug studs on any vehicle. That being said, I do wire brush the studs to remove rust when I change my wheels over each year. Since I'm taking the lug nuts off at least twice a year (for tire changes) and maybe another time for brakes or other reasons, my studs and lug nuts might be in good shape since they've been exercised. If you don't take you wheels off for a long time, the exposed fastener may be in bad shape or get seized.
From what I've read from the posts and links (thanks to all posters), it seems that a few drops of 30 weight oil on the stud may be ok. I've read also that no lubricant or anti-seize is required and that torque settings have been set assuming clean, dry threads. If you don't have clean, dry threads, there may be issues.
Since the clamping occurs when the nut hits the wheel, I think we would all agree that there cannot be any lubricant between the lug nut and the wheel surface or this will give a false torque reading.
The debate can continue of course.
From what I've read from the posts and links (thanks to all posters), it seems that a few drops of 30 weight oil on the stud may be ok. I've read also that no lubricant or anti-seize is required and that torque settings have been set assuming clean, dry threads. If you don't have clean, dry threads, there may be issues.
Since the clamping occurs when the nut hits the wheel, I think we would all agree that there cannot be any lubricant between the lug nut and the wheel surface or this will give a false torque reading.
The debate can continue of course.
Many times I've seen lug nuts that have been tightened so much that the nuts and wheels are deformed which takes a lot of force, much more than you'll get from lubing and torquing to spec. None of those vehicles had warped rotors or broken/stripped studs. This doesn't mean lubing is right (except where recommended by the manufacturer), it just shows that it isn't as detrimental as some would say.
12-26-2014, 10:31 AM
#43
