Years of 4.0s that require-recommend zinc
06-12-2019, 02:32 PM
#16
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Me personally, even in a vehicle that doesnt have flat tappet lifters, I still run T6. ZPPD isnt just for the lifters but helps mostly everything that makes metal on metal contact, which is pretty much everything inside an engine. I have 2 cars that see road course abuse and I send a sample of the oil to Blackstone after every race. They have never said anything bad about how my engines are wearing or that the oil is breaking down. To me, that says the oil is working how it should, even under a large amount of heat and stress, so I will keep on running it. Actually, I am going to switch over to Lucas semi synthetic next time and see how it does. It has an even higher ZPPD content than diesel oil. And plus, its blue oil, that means it has to be good!
06-12-2019, 07:07 PM
#17
CF Veteran
Thread Starter
Hey 5-Speed.... does that include the new formula of T6 that has just come out sitting around 1300 ppm... up from around 11-1200 ppm.
06-12-2019, 07:33 PM
#18
Old fart with a wrench
My mechanic just installed a Mabbco rebuilt shortblock in my WJ. Mabbco requires an oil with high ZDDP in it for the first 1,000 miles or it voids the warranty. He put Penngrade 1 10W-30 synthetic in it and the ZDDP is around 1600 ppm! I only went 500 miles, then I switched to Rotella T6 5W-40.
I can attest to the heat generated in a flat tappet cam mechanism because I've seen production machinery that wasn't being properly supplied with oil and there was SMOKE coming off the cams!
I can attest to the heat generated in a flat tappet cam mechanism because I've seen production machinery that wasn't being properly supplied with oil and there was SMOKE coming off the cams!
06-12-2019, 09:58 PM
#19
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My mechanic just installed a Mabbco rebuilt shortblock in my WJ. Mabbco requires an oil with high ZDDP in it for the first 1,000 miles or it voids the warranty. He put Penngrade 1 10W-30 synthetic in it and the ZDDP is around 1600 ppm! I only went 500 miles, then I switched to Rotella T6 5W-40.
I can attest to the heat generated in a flat tappet cam mechanism because I've seen production machinery that wasn't being properly supplied with oil and there was SMOKE coming off the cams!
I can attest to the heat generated in a flat tappet cam mechanism because I've seen production machinery that wasn't being properly supplied with oil and there was SMOKE coming off the cams!
06-13-2019, 08:16 AM
#20
CF Veteran
ALL engines with flat tappet lifters require a compound with zinc in it to reduce wear on the sliding surfaces where the lifters rub on the cam lobes. It seems a lot of newer engines use roller tappets so don't need zinc. The main problem with the current zinc compound (ZDDP) is it's combined with phosphorus, which can harm catalytic converters. Notice the Z and the P in the name. Most newer oils still contain zinc, but at a greatly reduced quantity. ZDDP also helps with piston ring wear. The whole point is if you reduce the phosphorus content to protect the converter, you also increase cam lobe and lifter wear. Personally, I'd rather replace a converter than a camshaft. Shell Rotella T6 Synthetic Diesel oil contains somewhere around 1200 ppm zinc whereas Valvoline Max Life only has around 600 ppm. I'm not sure of the actual figures, but those are close. The Rotella also is more stable at higher temperatures.
I know a guy at NAPA and he says they can't keep Rotella on the shelves for long. They are selling a ton of it. It's a bit pricey at $30/gal. but Amazon has a sale 'til the end of the month for $19.99 with a mail-in rebate that brings it down to $12.99, limit 2. I just bought 3 because you need 1 and 1/2 for an oil change. I've been using the 5W-40 for awhile. Advance Auto has it on sale every couple of months for $19.99.
I know a guy at NAPA and he says they can't keep Rotella on the shelves for long. They are selling a ton of it. It's a bit pricey at $30/gal. but Amazon has a sale 'til the end of the month for $19.99 with a mail-in rebate that brings it down to $12.99, limit 2. I just bought 3 because you need 1 and 1/2 for an oil change. I've been using the 5W-40 for awhile. Advance Auto has it on sale every couple of months for $19.99.
06-13-2019, 09:04 AM
#21
CF Veteran
So everybody is obsessed with zinc. Maybe a little bit about phosphates.
But there is a value that evaluates overall oil protection (PSI). And using that value, your T6 Diesel is rated as having only "modest" wear protection, with 110 oils rated better in this article.
http://rawze.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=923
Similar results:
https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/
So what's up with that?
Last edited by Dave51; 06-13-2019 at 09:10 AM.
06-13-2019, 09:08 AM
#22
CF Veteran
Rotella (doesn't that sound like a type of macaroni?) rated 118th:
http://www.bestsyntheticoilfilter.co...complete-list/
http://www.bestsyntheticoilfilter.co...complete-list/
06-13-2019, 10:59 AM
#23
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Thread Starter
Well I have a question, but it involves oil. Is this an appropriate place to ask it, or are the Oil Thread Police going to knock down my door and beat me into oblivion?
So everybody is obsessed with zinc. Maybe a little bit about phosphates.
But there is a value that evaluates overall oil protection (PSI). And using that value, your T6 Diesel is rated as having only "modest" wear protection, with 110 oils rated better in this article.
http://rawze.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=923
Similar results:
https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/
So what's up with that?
So everybody is obsessed with zinc. Maybe a little bit about phosphates.
But there is a value that evaluates overall oil protection (PSI). And using that value, your T6 Diesel is rated as having only "modest" wear protection, with 110 oils rated better in this article.
http://rawze.com/forums/showthread.php?tid=923
Similar results:
https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/
So what's up with that?
We all know that regardless what oil a person puts into their vehicle, changing it regularly (on-time for that vehicle) is FAR more important and beneficial than exactly what oil is used. Just because of the design of our older 4.0's I wanted to get the zinc perspective to see if it was best or recommended for the longevity of our type of engines. I plan on keeping my XJ for a long time and if there's something simple I can do to help possibly extend that lifespan like an oil with zinc, then great, that's a wiser choice for me.
06-13-2019, 12:16 PM
#24
CF Veteran
There's nothing "out of control" here. Those lists show (1) if you're really concerned about the longevity of your engine there are a number of different options that are far superior to the product that has been mentioned with a little more zinc; (2) many of these products have "cat-friendly" formulas so those comments that say people have to chose between a cat or cam are absurd; and (3) these articles at least have some data associated with them rather than unsubstantiated opinion. Certainly enough to show that T6 is not a good choice, rated 5 on a scale of 1 to 7.
06-13-2019, 05:29 PM
#25
CF Veteran
Thread Starter
Just sayin around here that oil is a very touchy subject with a lot of folks...so it's easy for it to go south really fast. So I didn't want to give it that opportunity.
Our 4.0s are not picky... as you can see from even just a small amount of research on the inter-webs... my main goal out of this thread was to find out if even after engine break-in period, if our old 4.0s could really benefit internally from continuing to using one that either had higher zinc levels or using a good (correct viscosity oil) and just using ZDDP additive to the oil changes.
Our 4.0s are not picky... as you can see from even just a small amount of research on the inter-webs... my main goal out of this thread was to find out if even after engine break-in period, if our old 4.0s could really benefit internally from continuing to using one that either had higher zinc levels or using a good (correct viscosity oil) and just using ZDDP additive to the oil changes.
06-13-2019, 05:42 PM
#26
CF Veteran
Thread Starter
I've been wrenching for many, many moons... but I'm not into building racing motors for track days, etc.
I'm really just trying to get down to the bottom of after break-in (which I doubt mine was done with intentional high zinc oil)...of really whether or not this is valid for prolonging life of our 4.0s or if it's just a bunch of crap that as long as you use a quality oil and the right viscosity that you're just fine.
Going off the old saying of an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. That's all...nothing more...nothing less.
I'm really just trying to get down to the bottom of after break-in (which I doubt mine was done with intentional high zinc oil)...of really whether or not this is valid for prolonging life of our 4.0s or if it's just a bunch of crap that as long as you use a quality oil and the right viscosity that you're just fine.
Going off the old saying of an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. That's all...nothing more...nothing less.
06-13-2019, 06:38 PM
#27
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RocketMouse - If it helps at all, when a very high HP engine leaves our shop, we put VR1 Racing 20-50 in it with no extra additives. We tried some other stuff but have had pretty good luck with the Valvoline. Again, these are no Jeep engines but if the oil can withstand 2000hp and racing conditions, it should be fine in a 200hp Jeep engine. Lots of choices out there, most of them are overkill for a low hp engine. When you arent making a ton of power, you dont need the best. Change it often and happy Jeepin! And dont run a Fram! Haha
06-13-2019, 07:46 PM
#28
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Thread Starter
RocketMouse - If it helps at all, when a very high HP engine leaves our shop, we put VR1 Racing 20-50 in it with no extra additives. We tried some other stuff but have had pretty good luck with the Valvoline. Again, these are no Jeep engines but if the oil can withstand 2000hp and racing conditions, it should be fine in a 200hp Jeep engine. Lots of choices out there, most of them are overkill for a low hp engine. When you arent making a ton of power, you dont need the best. Change it often and happy Jeepin! And dont run a Fram! Haha
That is very true...so it seems to me that from what I'm hearing is that regardless whether our old 4.0s were broke in with an oil of the time that had the zinc.... for what it does by creating that "glass like" layer on the surface of the internal parts at that microscopic layer, therefore reducing the friction between the parts.... that it certainly has the potential to extend the life of those parts because of what zinc does "chemically" so to speak. Then add the good detergent package on top of it...and that makes me feel like I'm doing the right thing for overall longevity of the motor...and that's why I started this thread in the first place. To make sure that the selection I am using in my XJ is protecting it the best that I can. With the zinc/ZDDP levels in T6 currently... seems like a good choice to continue with unless they change that formula. But I'm good with 1300 ppm.
And to keep it clear so there is no toes stepped on....I know there are other options that also contain zinc at different levels that is regular (not break-in oil). Again, changing our oil at regular service intervals is FAR more important than a particular brand that is used.
.....and friends don't let other friends use Fram...
Last edited by RocketMouse; 06-13-2019 at 07:59 PM.
06-14-2019, 04:36 AM
#29
CF Veteran
For all the T6 shills:
Ya really oughta read this:
https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/
Thanks so much for not giving touchy subjects the opportunity!
They are typically high zinc lovers who just can’t accept the fact that what they’ve always believed about the need for high zinc oils, is only an Old Wives Tale MYTH. So, they get upset and go out of their way trying to undermine anything that goes against what they have been brainwashed to believe about high zinc oils.
But, people need to consider the following. Those Oil Companies are in business to make money. That’s it. So, they put a product on the market that they feel there is a demand for, and will make them money. As a result, they will say “ABSOLUTELY ANYTHING”, to move that product, which will help their bottom line. So, high zinc loving people need to stop and consider that for a moment. The Oil Companies have a vested interest in telling people what they want to hear, so they will buy their oil. Therefore, they don’t hesitate to make misleading claims and false advertising. When it comes to motor oil, there is no such thing as truth in advertising.
https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/
Just sayin around here that oil is a very touchy subject with a lot of folks...so it's easy for it to go south really fast. So I didn't want to give it that opportunity.
.....and friends don't let other friends use Fram...
06-14-2019, 02:38 PM
#30
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Dave - Straight from the link you posted we have.....
Hmm... Interesting
The psi reference values above, ONLY APPLY TO MY TEST DATA, not to actual engine component loading. Here’s why:
The motor oil “Dynamic Wear Testing Under Load” I perform is WORST CASE torture testing. My test equipment is NOT intended to duplicate an engine’s internal components.
So, due to the COMPLETE DIFFERENCE in design, the pressures in my test are completely different, and therefore CANNOT be compared directly to an engine’s lobe/lifter interface pressure. That would be comparing apples to oranges, which makes absolutely no sense at all. My testing is so severe, that the oil fails at a much earlier point than it would in an engine.
The motor oil “Dynamic Wear Testing Under Load” I perform is WORST CASE torture testing. My test equipment is NOT intended to duplicate an engine’s internal components.
So, due to the COMPLETE DIFFERENCE in design, the pressures in my test are completely different, and therefore CANNOT be compared directly to an engine’s lobe/lifter interface pressure. That would be comparing apples to oranges, which makes absolutely no sense at all. My testing is so severe, that the oil fails at a much earlier point than it would in an engine.