Years of 4.0s that require-recommend zinc
06-14-2019, 02:49 PM
#31
CF Veteran
And further
And again, most important of all, is at the end of the day, my test data EXACTLY MATCHES real world race track experience, real world flat tappet break-in experience, and real world High Performance street experience, which PROVES once and for all, that my test data is the spot on REAL DEAL. This completely confirms that my test results WILL ACCURATELY PREDICT what we can expect from motor oils in running engines on the track, during flat tappet or roller break-in, or on the street, EVEN if those oils are high zinc oil. It also bears repeating, that all the data here was determined by the Physics and Chemistry involved. It is NOT my opinion, and it is NOT my theory. It is the Science that tells us what is going on with motor oils. And no one can argue with Physics and Chemistry. So, that should be more than enough proof to satisfy anyone who was skeptical of how well my test data compares to the real world.
06-14-2019, 03:22 PM
#32
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[quote][But, people need to consider the following. Those Oil Companies are in business to make money. That’s it. So, they put a product on the market that they feel there is a demand for, and will make them money. As a result, they will say “ABSOLUTELY ANYTHING”, to move that product, which will help their bottom line. So, high zinc loving people need to stop and consider that for a moment. The Oil Companies have a vested interest in telling people what they want to hear, so they will buy their oil. Therefore, they don’t hesitate to make misleading claims and false advertising. When it comes to motor oil, there is no such thing as truth in advertising[\quote]
Yes they are in it to make money but they also have to meet the specs of the requirements laid out by the organization that put the spec out. So in the case of Rotella in it's various flavors that meet CK4 or CJ4 specifications, the API requires what they do in the CK4 spec for a reason. They wouldn't be loading up diesel engine oils with ZINC and other additives just for ****s and giggles, they did it for a reason.
Yes they are in it to make money but they also have to meet the specs of the requirements laid out by the organization that put the spec out. So in the case of Rotella in it's various flavors that meet CK4 or CJ4 specifications, the API requires what they do in the CK4 spec for a reason. They wouldn't be loading up diesel engine oils with ZINC and other additives just for ****s and giggles, they did it for a reason.
06-14-2019, 04:07 PM
#34
CF Veteran
Yes they are in it to make money but they also have to meet the specs of the requirements laid out by the organization that put the spec out. So in the case of Rotella in it's various flavors that meet CK4 or CJ4 specifications, the API requires what they do in the CK4 spec for a reason. They wouldn't be loading up diesel engine oils with ZINC and other additives just for ****s and giggles, they did it for a reason.
Can you share with the group all those reasons and requirements that Rotella is doing what it's doing?
Thanks so much for your help!
06-15-2019, 12:57 AM
#35
CF Veteran
Thread Starter
Hey 5-speed.. or anyone else that has experience to answer.....
Now I have a '99 XJ. Since you build other engines as well... by any chance do you know what kind of cast the stock lifters are in a 4.0 of that vintage? This is where I've been hearing that zinc may not be required due to the fact that as new as a '99 may have different cast metal lifters designed to run on non-zinc oil therefore using an oil that has zinc in it could potentially cause more harm than good. And simply using a quality full synthetic is best.
Now that being said, I thought that a coating of zinc would still help because it's a flat tappet lifter, NOT a roller design.
I've been running T6 since I got her a year and a half ago. And she uses/burns ZERO oil with that the T6.
Any thoughts on that?
Now I have a '99 XJ. Since you build other engines as well... by any chance do you know what kind of cast the stock lifters are in a 4.0 of that vintage? This is where I've been hearing that zinc may not be required due to the fact that as new as a '99 may have different cast metal lifters designed to run on non-zinc oil therefore using an oil that has zinc in it could potentially cause more harm than good. And simply using a quality full synthetic is best.
Now that being said, I thought that a coating of zinc would still help because it's a flat tappet lifter, NOT a roller design.
I've been running T6 since I got her a year and a half ago. And she uses/burns ZERO oil with that the T6.
Any thoughts on that?
06-15-2019, 01:00 AM
#36
CF Veteran
Thread Starter
I get the whole animal of request of the consumer market driving oil companies to produce what will sell like hotcakes and make them money.... I'm just trying to wade through all the BS to the real answer for our 4.0s. 
06-15-2019, 07:00 AM
#37
CF Veteran
... by any chance do you know what kind of cast the stock lifters are in a 4.0 of that vintage? This is where I've been hearing that zinc may not be required due to the fact that as new as a '99 may have different cast metal lifters designed to run on non-zinc oil ...
06-15-2019, 02:05 PM
#38
Old fart with a wrench
I find that highly unlikely. I believe lifter bodies are carborized cast steel and are nearly as hard as gears. They have to match the hardness of the camshaft so wear is minimal. They also are not centered over the cam lobes so they rotate as they go up and down to even out the wear as much as possible. This is why the pushrods rotate.
06-15-2019, 03:39 PM
#39
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Hey 5-speed.. or anyone else that has experience to answer.....
Now I have a '99 XJ. Since you build other engines as well... by any chance do you know what kind of cast the stock lifters are in a 4.0 of that vintage? This is where I've been hearing that zinc may not be required due to the fact that as new as a '99 may have different cast metal lifters designed to run on non-zinc oil therefore using an oil that has zinc in it could potentially cause more harm than good. And simply using a quality full synthetic is best.
Now that being said, I thought that a coating of zinc would still help because it's a flat tappet lifter, NOT a roller design.
I've been running T6 since I got her a year and a half ago. And she uses/burns ZERO oil with that the T6.
Any thoughts on that?
Now I have a '99 XJ. Since you build other engines as well... by any chance do you know what kind of cast the stock lifters are in a 4.0 of that vintage? This is where I've been hearing that zinc may not be required due to the fact that as new as a '99 may have different cast metal lifters designed to run on non-zinc oil therefore using an oil that has zinc in it could potentially cause more harm than good. And simply using a quality full synthetic is best.
Now that being said, I thought that a coating of zinc would still help because it's a flat tappet lifter, NOT a roller design.
I've been running T6 since I got her a year and a half ago. And she uses/burns ZERO oil with that the T6.
Any thoughts on that?
You have to keep in mind that between the cam and lifters, there is no oil psi like in the main and rod bearings. You are only relying on the thin oil film to slow the wear down. The zinc is there to create it's own barrier so that you get zinc on zinc wear instead of metal on metal wear. The zinc can be replaced, when at the correct temp, the metal, not so much. As dave brought up earlier in that link, it talks about psi load capabilities. That matters on flat tapped cams when there is low zinc as you are 100% relying on the oil to be strong enough to prevent metal on metal contact. With a layer of zinc, even if you get metal on metal contact, it's actually just zinc on zinc.
06-18-2019, 05:13 PM
#40
CF Veteran
Thread Starter
I don't have an actual link. I wish I did.... that info came from a good friend of mine that is a professional mechanic. Me, I've worked on and build, repaired, upgraded, etc. many things on vehicles over the years...fully rebuilt my first motor from scratch when I was 14 and that was many, many moons ago now.
So I know my way around fixing cars/trucks/motorcycles, etc....but I don't do it for a living so I'm not a professional mechanic and don't claim to be one, so that's why I ask questions like this that I haven't found the answer for myself. Which is why all of this input is appreciated.
So I know my way around fixing cars/trucks/motorcycles, etc....but I don't do it for a living so I'm not a professional mechanic and don't claim to be one, so that's why I ask questions like this that I haven't found the answer for myself. Which is why all of this input is appreciated.
06-18-2019, 05:37 PM
#41
CF Veteran
Thread Starter
I am not sure of what material the lifters are made from. However, that really doesnt matter. The main point is that yes the lifters are cast, making them pretty soft. The cam is also cast making it soft. However, cams go through a hardening process and the lifters dont. So the cam is technically stronger when talking about "rockwell" hardness. Look it up if you dont know about it. The point of zinc is to bond to metal and create a barrier right? When you have 2 dissimilar metals contacting each other, aka cam and lifters, the softer one is obviously going to wear faster. The zinc barrier is what helps slow this wear process down. You no longer have 2 dissimilar metals contacting each other, rather you have zinc on zinc, two similar things.
You have to keep in mind that between the cam and lifters, there is no oil psi like in the main and rod bearings. You are only relying on the thin oil film to slow the wear down. The zinc is there to create it's own barrier so that you get zinc on zinc wear instead of metal on metal wear. The zinc can be replaced, when at the correct temp, the metal, not so much. As dave brought up earlier in that link, it talks about psi load capabilities. That matters on flat tapped cams when there is low zinc as you are 100% relying on the oil to be strong enough to prevent metal on metal contact. With a layer of zinc, even if you get metal on metal contact, it's actually just zinc on zinc.
You have to keep in mind that between the cam and lifters, there is no oil psi like in the main and rod bearings. You are only relying on the thin oil film to slow the wear down. The zinc is there to create it's own barrier so that you get zinc on zinc wear instead of metal on metal wear. The zinc can be replaced, when at the correct temp, the metal, not so much. As dave brought up earlier in that link, it talks about psi load capabilities. That matters on flat tapped cams when there is low zinc as you are 100% relying on the oil to be strong enough to prevent metal on metal contact. With a layer of zinc, even if you get metal on metal contact, it's actually just zinc on zinc.
06-18-2019, 07:04 PM
#42
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A little off topic.... but I just had a guy drop off an engine that had less than 20k miles on it and it was seized up. I asked him how this happened. His response, I took it to get an oil change and a few days later it just froze while doing 20 mph. My first thought, the place that did the oil change fired it up without oil. Upon disassembly, every rod bearing spun and the main bearings were pretty much welded to the crank. That meaning, the engine was run with no oil. I am getting pretty good at guessing this kind of stuff!
06-19-2019, 12:06 PM
#43
CF Veteran
Thread Starter
No problem and glad it made sense! Everyone has their own opinion so maybe thats why he recommend something different? Me, I really dont care what brand the engine is, an engine is an engine. If one has flat tappet lifts and another has the same but is a different brand, the same principles apply to them. Its a mechanical device, not rocket science. I have only been building engines for 18 years consistently, so take what I say with a grain of salt haha. I actually dont build them daily anymore but over see the builds instead and do all the trouble shooting on why engines failed.
A little off topic.... but I just had a guy drop off an engine that had less than 20k miles on it and it was seized up. I asked him how this happened. His response, I took it to get an oil change and a few days later it just froze while doing 20 mph. My first thought, the place that did the oil change fired it up without oil. Upon disassembly, every rod bearing spun and the main bearings were pretty much welded to the crank. That meaning, the engine was run with no oil. I am getting pretty good at guessing this kind of stuff!
A little off topic.... but I just had a guy drop off an engine that had less than 20k miles on it and it was seized up. I asked him how this happened. His response, I took it to get an oil change and a few days later it just froze while doing 20 mph. My first thought, the place that did the oil change fired it up without oil. Upon disassembly, every rod bearing spun and the main bearings were pretty much welded to the crank. That meaning, the engine was run with no oil. I am getting pretty good at guessing this kind of stuff!
I pretty much knew what zinc did for older flat tappet engines like ours...but wanted to really nail down that with it obviously broken in, that I wasn't just blindly putting something in my motor that in reality would be causing more harm than the good I thought it was doing. If it doesn't make cats happy... so be it. even though they may not be super cheap, it's still a boatload cheaper than a new motor.
years ago, I had a friend that took his at the time brand new car, to an oil change place (because he knew nothing about wrenching/maint. at all).... well, the nutjob kid at the "quick lube" joint failed to put the oil drain plug back in properly....well...2 miles down the road seized the motor... and the shop was on the hook for big $$$ for a brand new one. The car was only like 4 months old at the time.....dorks....lol
Last edited by RocketMouse; 06-19-2019 at 12:11 PM.
06-24-2021, 08:42 AM
#44
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2005 TJ
I had a lifter tick / tap what ever you guy's want to call it [ "1 - 10" on the scale 5 - 6 ] I have tried different oils, even putting stuff in my oil. I found one that worked XADO EX120 BUT ONLY until I changed my oil then it would start ticking again. So did more research found this thread. I have been using VR1 10w30 for about 3k miles now. About to take a 650 mile road trip and ill change my oil. The tick is still there but comes and goes but it's only if I hold my breath and listen for it though. The engine only has 89k started at 64k. If I don't report back it's because I'm still satisfied and nothing has changed.
06-24-2021, 03:42 PM
#45
CF Veteran
Thread Starter
Well... we need more info on the tick you are experiencing.... is it all the time when the motor is fully up to op temp? Or is it only noticeable on a cold startup and you hear it for a few mins then it goes away?