93 -04 ZJ Fuel tank fires on impact, public statements
06-08-2013, 02:20 PM
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93 -04 ZJ Fuel tank fires on impact, public statements
A lot of us remember the exploding Pinto issue, and the 94-03 ZJ made the national news this past week, too. The issue has evidently been around a while. Here are a couple of statements that are publically available, with URLs, in case you want to read more. Though I know nothing (ask my wife), I expect more press and increased response from Fiat soon. In the meantime, if you want to undertake your own mods, some issues and possible solutions are in this information. Just an FYI.
http://news.consumerreports.org/cars/2013/06/chrysler-refuses-government-recall-request-for-older-jeep-grand-cherokee-liberty-suvs.html:
Chrysler and NHTSA at odds over Jeep GrandCherokee and Liberty recall request
Jun 7, 2013 1:00 PM
[IMG]file:///C:/Users/Sh/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.jpg[/IMG]
Earlier this week, theNational Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) requested that Chryslerinitiate a safety recall of the 1993-2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee and 2002-2007Jeep Liberty to address a performance and design defect. NHTSA is calling forChrysler to improve the rear-crash protection in approximately 2.7 millionvehicles. In a widely distributed press release, Chrysler gave a rare responseand effectively said, "No."
Chrysler's position isthat these vehicles are safe and not defective. NHTSA and safety advocatesdisagree.
Both Chrysler and NHTSAagree that the Jeeps in question met federal safety standards in place at thetime. But that doesn't mean NHTSA, in its own words, can ignore deadlyproblems. (Search forrecalls on your car.)
The NHTSA safetyinvestigation into the Grand Cherokee was launched in 2010 in response to apetition by the Center for AutoSafety (CAS), one of the nation's oldest safety lobbying groups,after CAS shared analysis that found an unusually high rate of fatal fires inGrand Cherokees in the federal Fatality Analysis Reporting System (FARS)database than other comparable vehicles. In fact, CAS Executive DirectorClarence Ditlow said there had been 10 times as many fire deaths in GrandCherokees as in Ford Pintos, which were infamously recalled after 27 peopledied in fires following rear-end collisions.
To learn more about car safety, visit our guide to car safety.
[IMG]file:///C:/Users/Sh/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image003.jpg[/IMG]In its official correspondence with Chryslerreleased this week, NHTSA states that its Office of Defects Investigation (ODI)found that the Grand Cherokee and Liberty are "poor performers"relative to competing SUVs on the market at the same time, although its deathrates per millions of registered vehicle years (MRVY) are not as dramatic asthe CAS figures. The numbers get complicated, because they include both deathsattributable to rear-impact crashes and those that are caused by post-crashfires due to fuel leaks. In total, CAS estimates that there have been 246 fatalfire crashes with 350 deaths and at least 112 deaths due to fire. In coveringthis developing story in the past, we pointed out that Jeep Grand Cherokee fireinvestigation shows how accidentstatistics are open to interpretation. (That said, Safety Research& Strategies brings the numbers and tragic accounts to life.)
Chrysler disputes thehigher number, maintaining that that their vehicles are as safe as comparablevehicles. The company states, "For the vast majority of the incidentscited by NHTSA, the crash force was far in excess of the rear crash fuel leakrequirements in place at that time." Further, Chrysler claims that theNHTSA analysis does not consider all available data.
Historical context
After the Ford Pinto safety scare in the 1970s, manufacturers moved to placingmost fuel tanks in less vulnerable locations than behind the rear axle. Basedon a 1993 a study of fire-related deaths among 1977-1989 models published bythe American Journal of Public Health, this effort had a substantial effect onreducing deaths.
NHTSA states that inlooking at 74 vehicles in the 2002 and 2003 model years, only four placed thefuel tank behind the rear axle: Ford Mustang, Ford Crown Victoria, Jeep GrandCherokee, and Jeep Liberty. These Jeep designs went against the industry trendsand configuration of other Chrysler products. NHTSA points out that because theseJeeps have a higher ride height than conventional passenger cars, their fueltanks are especially vulnerable to rear impacts from cars.
In a letter to ChryslerGroup and Fiat, Ditlow points out, "There has not been a single confirmedfire death since Chrysler moved the fuel tanks from behind the rear axle in2005 for the Grand Cherokee and 2008 for the Liberty."
Safety advocate Ralph Nader hadproposed a solution back in 2011: "Fiat needs to recall theGrand Cherokee and remedy the fuel tank defect by installing (1) an optionalframe rail reinforcement bracket on the 1993-1998 Grand Cherokee, (2) optionalskid plates on all 1993-2004 Grand Cherokees that do not have them, (3) aneffective check valve system to shut off the flow of gasoline if the fillerhose is pulled out of the fuel tank or filler neck, and (4) additional shieldsto protect the fuel tank from sharp objects in the crush zone impacts."
Although it has issued apress release,Chrysler has until June 18th to file an official written response to the NHTSArequest.
The bottom line
While the organizations debate data and research methodology, the clear messagefrom NHTSA and CAS is that these Jeeps present a greater fire risk thancompeting models. Beyond this issue, neither SUV is a good used-car purchasedue to reliability concerns and, in the case of the Liberty, a low overall testscore. The current, all-new GrandCherokee, however, is an impressive vehicle that is Consumer ReportsRecommended. And as mentioned above, its fuel tank is forward of the rear axle.
This is a good reminderfor consumers to thoroughly research newand used carswhen shopping, prioritizing those that excel in crash tests and dynamic tests,such as braking and accident avoidance. While unforeseen problems may ariseover time, it is always wise to avail yourself of all available informationbefore buying.
Related:
Investigationinto Jeep fires expanded to 5.1 million SUVs
Jeep GrandCherokee fire investigation shows how accident statistics are open tointerpretation
Fire deaths inJeep Grand Cherokees continue to mount, safety group reaches out to Chrysler
NHTSA Jeep GrandCherokee fire investigation grows--by one
—Jeff Bartlett
http://nader.org/2011/01/26/statement-on-jeep-grand-cherokee-recall/
Statement on JeepGrand Cherokee Recall
Posted January 26, 2011
Milano Italy For ReleaseJanuary 26, 2011
Statement of Ralph Nader
The 1993-2004 Jeep GrandCherokee is a modern day Pinto for soccer moms with a fuel tank locateddangerously behind the rear axle in the crush zone of an impact. In the UnitedStates alone, there have been 184 fatal fire crashes in Jeep Grand Cherokees whichhave resulted in 269 deaths from 1993 through 2009. In 2005 during the mergerwith Daimler Benz, Chrysler moved the fuel tank forward of the rear axle to thesafer location preferred by German engineers and used in Mercedes models. Theunsafe location of the fuel tank is worsened by the dangerous position of thefuel filler hose. In 1993-1998 Grand Cherokees, the filler hose goes throughthe frame rail and is pulled out of the fuel tank as the frame rail bendsupward at the hole for the filler hose in a rear crash. In 1999-2004 GrandCherokees, Chrysler relocated the filler hose under a redesigned solid framerail and now the filler hose pulls out of the filler neck at the top ratherthan the fuel tank at the bottom. The plastic fuel tank itself is vulnerable topuncture from sharp objects in the crush zone of a rear impact crash.
The victims includemothers like Susan Kline who had just dropped her two children off at schooland was hit from behind by a 2004 Toyota Sienna when she slowed her 1996 GrandCherokee for a car stopped in front of her. Her door jammed shut in the crashand Mrs Kline struggled unsuccessfully to get out the passenger side but wasburned alive. Four year old Cassidy Jarmon was strapped in a child seat in therear of her mother’s 1993 Grand Cherokee when it was hit from behind by a 2001Chevrolet Lumina. Cassidy died of second and third degree burns over 45% of herbody. Jose Sierra died of burns when his 1986 Toyota MR2 struck the back of a1997 Grand Cherokee on Montauk highway in NY at about 30 mph. He died of burnsin the hospital the following day. Two sister who were passengers in the Jeepwere terribly burned. In all three crashes, the striking vehicles had low frontends that submarined under the Jeep and into the fuel system structure behindthe rear axle.
Fiat was not responsiblefor the design of the 1993-2004; Chrysler is. Mercedes got Chrysler to move thefuel tank to a safer location in 2005 and later models. Now that Fiat haspurchased Chrysler, it has the moral obligation to remedy the deadly fuel tankdesign in the Jeep Grand Cherokee before more innocent victims are burnedtoday, not only in the United States, but also in Europe where Chryslermarketed the Grand Cherokee since 1994 in its Build Up for Export (BUX) plan.Just like Ford recalled the Pinto, Fiat needs to recall the Grand Cherokee andremedy the fuel tank defect by installing
(1) an optional framerail reinforcement bracket on the 1993-1998 Grand Cherokee,
(2) optional skid plateson all 1993-2004 Grand Cherokees that do not have them,
(3) an effective checkvalve system to shut off the flow of gasoline if the filler hose is pulled outof the fuel tank or filler neck, and
(4) additional shields toprotect the fuel tank from sharp objects in the crush zone impacts. To ensurethese inexpensive remedies are adequate, Fiat should conduct a public crashtest program just as was done for the Ford Pinto recall.
* For more information,contact Clarence Ditlow, Center for Auto Safety, Washington DC, 202-328-7700.
http://news.consumerreports.org/cars/2013/06/chrysler-refuses-government-recall-request-for-older-jeep-grand-cherokee-liberty-suvs.html:
Chrysler and NHTSA at odds over Jeep GrandCherokee and Liberty recall request
Jun 7, 2013 1:00 PM
[IMG]file:///C:/Users/Sh/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.jpg[/IMG]
Earlier this week, theNational Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) requested that Chryslerinitiate a safety recall of the 1993-2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee and 2002-2007Jeep Liberty to address a performance and design defect. NHTSA is calling forChrysler to improve the rear-crash protection in approximately 2.7 millionvehicles. In a widely distributed press release, Chrysler gave a rare responseand effectively said, "No."
Chrysler's position isthat these vehicles are safe and not defective. NHTSA and safety advocatesdisagree.
Both Chrysler and NHTSAagree that the Jeeps in question met federal safety standards in place at thetime. But that doesn't mean NHTSA, in its own words, can ignore deadlyproblems. (Search forrecalls on your car.)
The NHTSA safetyinvestigation into the Grand Cherokee was launched in 2010 in response to apetition by the Center for AutoSafety (CAS), one of the nation's oldest safety lobbying groups,after CAS shared analysis that found an unusually high rate of fatal fires inGrand Cherokees in the federal Fatality Analysis Reporting System (FARS)database than other comparable vehicles. In fact, CAS Executive DirectorClarence Ditlow said there had been 10 times as many fire deaths in GrandCherokees as in Ford Pintos, which were infamously recalled after 27 peopledied in fires following rear-end collisions.
To learn more about car safety, visit our guide to car safety.
[IMG]file:///C:/Users/Sh/AppData/Local/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image003.jpg[/IMG]In its official correspondence with Chryslerreleased this week, NHTSA states that its Office of Defects Investigation (ODI)found that the Grand Cherokee and Liberty are "poor performers"relative to competing SUVs on the market at the same time, although its deathrates per millions of registered vehicle years (MRVY) are not as dramatic asthe CAS figures. The numbers get complicated, because they include both deathsattributable to rear-impact crashes and those that are caused by post-crashfires due to fuel leaks. In total, CAS estimates that there have been 246 fatalfire crashes with 350 deaths and at least 112 deaths due to fire. In coveringthis developing story in the past, we pointed out that Jeep Grand Cherokee fireinvestigation shows how accidentstatistics are open to interpretation. (That said, Safety Research& Strategies brings the numbers and tragic accounts to life.)
Chrysler disputes thehigher number, maintaining that that their vehicles are as safe as comparablevehicles. The company states, "For the vast majority of the incidentscited by NHTSA, the crash force was far in excess of the rear crash fuel leakrequirements in place at that time." Further, Chrysler claims that theNHTSA analysis does not consider all available data.
Historical context
After the Ford Pinto safety scare in the 1970s, manufacturers moved to placingmost fuel tanks in less vulnerable locations than behind the rear axle. Basedon a 1993 a study of fire-related deaths among 1977-1989 models published bythe American Journal of Public Health, this effort had a substantial effect onreducing deaths.
NHTSA states that inlooking at 74 vehicles in the 2002 and 2003 model years, only four placed thefuel tank behind the rear axle: Ford Mustang, Ford Crown Victoria, Jeep GrandCherokee, and Jeep Liberty. These Jeep designs went against the industry trendsand configuration of other Chrysler products. NHTSA points out that because theseJeeps have a higher ride height than conventional passenger cars, their fueltanks are especially vulnerable to rear impacts from cars.
In a letter to ChryslerGroup and Fiat, Ditlow points out, "There has not been a single confirmedfire death since Chrysler moved the fuel tanks from behind the rear axle in2005 for the Grand Cherokee and 2008 for the Liberty."
Safety advocate Ralph Nader hadproposed a solution back in 2011: "Fiat needs to recall theGrand Cherokee and remedy the fuel tank defect by installing (1) an optionalframe rail reinforcement bracket on the 1993-1998 Grand Cherokee, (2) optionalskid plates on all 1993-2004 Grand Cherokees that do not have them, (3) aneffective check valve system to shut off the flow of gasoline if the fillerhose is pulled out of the fuel tank or filler neck, and (4) additional shieldsto protect the fuel tank from sharp objects in the crush zone impacts."
Although it has issued apress release,Chrysler has until June 18th to file an official written response to the NHTSArequest.
The bottom line
While the organizations debate data and research methodology, the clear messagefrom NHTSA and CAS is that these Jeeps present a greater fire risk thancompeting models. Beyond this issue, neither SUV is a good used-car purchasedue to reliability concerns and, in the case of the Liberty, a low overall testscore. The current, all-new GrandCherokee, however, is an impressive vehicle that is Consumer ReportsRecommended. And as mentioned above, its fuel tank is forward of the rear axle.
This is a good reminderfor consumers to thoroughly research newand used carswhen shopping, prioritizing those that excel in crash tests and dynamic tests,such as braking and accident avoidance. While unforeseen problems may ariseover time, it is always wise to avail yourself of all available informationbefore buying.
Related:
Investigationinto Jeep fires expanded to 5.1 million SUVs
Jeep GrandCherokee fire investigation shows how accident statistics are open tointerpretation
Fire deaths inJeep Grand Cherokees continue to mount, safety group reaches out to Chrysler
NHTSA Jeep GrandCherokee fire investigation grows--by one
—Jeff Bartlett
http://nader.org/2011/01/26/statement-on-jeep-grand-cherokee-recall/
Statement on JeepGrand Cherokee Recall
Posted January 26, 2011
Milano Italy For ReleaseJanuary 26, 2011
Statement of Ralph Nader
The 1993-2004 Jeep GrandCherokee is a modern day Pinto for soccer moms with a fuel tank locateddangerously behind the rear axle in the crush zone of an impact. In the UnitedStates alone, there have been 184 fatal fire crashes in Jeep Grand Cherokees whichhave resulted in 269 deaths from 1993 through 2009. In 2005 during the mergerwith Daimler Benz, Chrysler moved the fuel tank forward of the rear axle to thesafer location preferred by German engineers and used in Mercedes models. Theunsafe location of the fuel tank is worsened by the dangerous position of thefuel filler hose. In 1993-1998 Grand Cherokees, the filler hose goes throughthe frame rail and is pulled out of the fuel tank as the frame rail bendsupward at the hole for the filler hose in a rear crash. In 1999-2004 GrandCherokees, Chrysler relocated the filler hose under a redesigned solid framerail and now the filler hose pulls out of the filler neck at the top ratherthan the fuel tank at the bottom. The plastic fuel tank itself is vulnerable topuncture from sharp objects in the crush zone of a rear impact crash.
The victims includemothers like Susan Kline who had just dropped her two children off at schooland was hit from behind by a 2004 Toyota Sienna when she slowed her 1996 GrandCherokee for a car stopped in front of her. Her door jammed shut in the crashand Mrs Kline struggled unsuccessfully to get out the passenger side but wasburned alive. Four year old Cassidy Jarmon was strapped in a child seat in therear of her mother’s 1993 Grand Cherokee when it was hit from behind by a 2001Chevrolet Lumina. Cassidy died of second and third degree burns over 45% of herbody. Jose Sierra died of burns when his 1986 Toyota MR2 struck the back of a1997 Grand Cherokee on Montauk highway in NY at about 30 mph. He died of burnsin the hospital the following day. Two sister who were passengers in the Jeepwere terribly burned. In all three crashes, the striking vehicles had low frontends that submarined under the Jeep and into the fuel system structure behindthe rear axle.
Fiat was not responsiblefor the design of the 1993-2004; Chrysler is. Mercedes got Chrysler to move thefuel tank to a safer location in 2005 and later models. Now that Fiat haspurchased Chrysler, it has the moral obligation to remedy the deadly fuel tankdesign in the Jeep Grand Cherokee before more innocent victims are burnedtoday, not only in the United States, but also in Europe where Chryslermarketed the Grand Cherokee since 1994 in its Build Up for Export (BUX) plan.Just like Ford recalled the Pinto, Fiat needs to recall the Grand Cherokee andremedy the fuel tank defect by installing
(1) an optional framerail reinforcement bracket on the 1993-1998 Grand Cherokee,
(2) optional skid plateson all 1993-2004 Grand Cherokees that do not have them,
(3) an effective checkvalve system to shut off the flow of gasoline if the filler hose is pulled outof the fuel tank or filler neck, and
(4) additional shields toprotect the fuel tank from sharp objects in the crush zone impacts. To ensurethese inexpensive remedies are adequate, Fiat should conduct a public crashtest program just as was done for the Ford Pinto recall.
* For more information,contact Clarence Ditlow, Center for Auto Safety, Washington DC, 202-328-7700.
06-09-2013, 01:42 PM
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What You Can Do
I reached out to your forum several months ago but did not get much response. I am the creator of the petition online with the 126,000 signatures asking NHTSA to force Chrysler to do the right things and stop people from burning to death. It is great that this is making national headlines but sadly, this isn't happening fast enough. Over 3 years of studies by NHTSA has cost another life. A gentleman in Houston Texas burned to death just this week when his Jeep was rear ended.
Please go to change.org/dangerousjeeps and sign this petition. Then please tell a friend. Thank you.
For the skeptics, I applaud your need of facts. There is an entire section under NEWS on the petition page that is a long list of links to supporting documents for your review.
Please go to change.org/dangerousjeeps and sign this petition. Then please tell a friend. Thank you.
For the skeptics, I applaud your need of facts. There is an entire section under NEWS on the petition page that is a long list of links to supporting documents for your review.
06-09-2013, 06:57 PM
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Engine: 4.0 with all of the noise and clatter
You sell millions of any type of vehicle and there will be fires and deaths. It's the chance we take every time we get behind the wheel.
06-10-2013, 08:56 AM
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I reached out to your forum several months ago but did not get much response. I am the creator of the petition online with the 126,000 signatures asking NHTSA to force Chrysler to do the right things and stop people from burning to death. It is great that this is making national headlines but sadly, this isn't happening fast enough. Over 3 years of studies by NHTSA has cost another life. A gentleman in Houston Texas burned to death just this week when his Jeep was rear ended.
Please go to change.org/dangerousjeeps and sign this petition. Then please tell a friend. Thank you.
For the skeptics, I applaud your need of facts. There is an entire section under NEWS on the petition page that is a long list of links to supporting documents for your review.
Please go to change.org/dangerousjeeps and sign this petition. Then please tell a friend. Thank you.
For the skeptics, I applaud your need of facts. There is an entire section under NEWS on the petition page that is a long list of links to supporting documents for your review.
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06-11-2013, 11:28 AM
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No $$ Here
I receive no money from my campaign but am spending thousands that I don't have to help spread the word and try to prevent anyone else from having to go through this. These Jeeps have their gas tank in the crush zone. Other vehicles do not. The ones who have tried this less-expensive design were quickly taken off of the road.
06-11-2013, 11:40 AM
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You really are special huh?
It was a HIGH SPEED REAR END COLLISION here's the thing, I can bet my right nut(placed my left on another bet already) that you can grab a dozen other car/SUV/etc.. From that era(remember, newest one is 12 years old) and I bet almost each one would have the exact same results, why? Because it was a very high speed rear end with NO BRAKING from a BIG SIZE RIG
It was a HIGH SPEED REAR END COLLISION here's the thing, I can bet my right nut(placed my left on another bet already) that you can grab a dozen other car/SUV/etc.. From that era(remember, newest one is 12 years old) and I bet almost each one would have the exact same results, why? Because it was a very high speed rear end with NO BRAKING from a BIG SIZE RIG
06-11-2013, 11:40 AM
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A lot of wasted money just so you can have that warm and fuzzy feeling that the libs like so much.
06-11-2013, 11:50 AM
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I could understand if it was a low speed like 45 and below and a vehicle caught fire, that would raise warning signals. But it wasn't, it was iirc at 70-75 mph into a stopped vehicle, you know what kind of force that creates? That's like swinging a 15lb sledge hammer to the back of your skull(probably under exaggerating that)
I know what goes in to that kind of force, I was in one before, a 80's suburu in to a stopped lifted truck at 80mph(my dad was drunk) we straight went under that truck, destroyed the front of the suby. Did we blame the truck for being to tall? Or blame the suby for being to short? Frack no! We blamed my dad for his reckless driving, something you should be doing! Stop trying to pocket millions for dumb excuses and go after the guy who wasn't paying attention
I know what goes in to that kind of force, I was in one before, a 80's suburu in to a stopped lifted truck at 80mph(my dad was drunk) we straight went under that truck, destroyed the front of the suby. Did we blame the truck for being to tall? Or blame the suby for being to short? Frack no! We blamed my dad for his reckless driving, something you should be doing! Stop trying to pocket millions for dumb excuses and go after the guy who wasn't paying attention
06-11-2013, 12:02 PM
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I could understand if it was a low speed like 45 and below and a vehicle caught fire, that would raise warning signals. But it wasn't, it was iirc at 70-75 mph into a stopped vehicle, you know what kind of force that creates? That's like swinging a 15lb sledge hammer to the back of your skull(probably under exaggerating that)
I know what goes in to that kind of force, I was in one before, a 80's suburu in to a stopped lifted truck at 80mph(my dad was drunk) we straight went under that truck, destroyed the front of the suby. Did we blame the truck for being to tall? Or blame the suby for being to short? Frack no! We blamed my dad for his reckless driving, something you should be doing! Stop trying to pocket millions for dumb excuses and go after the guy who wasn't paying attention
I know what goes in to that kind of force, I was in one before, a 80's suburu in to a stopped lifted truck at 80mph(my dad was drunk) we straight went under that truck, destroyed the front of the suby. Did we blame the truck for being to tall? Or blame the suby for being to short? Frack no! We blamed my dad for his reckless driving, something you should be doing! Stop trying to pocket millions for dumb excuses and go after the guy who wasn't paying attention
06-11-2013, 12:07 PM
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Got a creditable link to this? Taking a quick gander through google and liveleak, the only jeep that caught fire was when it ran in to a tanker carrying jet fuel..... Back in 2012.......
